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Varying AI Speeds (originally an RVL Topic)

Manmountain
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7 Feb 2015, 08:51 PM #1

Rolci @ Monday, Jul 18 2011, 23:17 wrote:... I'll give an example to describe the problem. Say I'm second position in a race, and my car is slightly faster than the 1st place. So imagine a long straight part of the track. Obviously I will slowly catch up and overtake. The problem is, if the same car is behind me, it'll catch me up! How?? Also, if it's like 80m behind me, it'll get closer to me at a stupid rate...
This definitely happens.
Nero @ Thursday, Jul 28 2011, 12:33 wrote:Completely normal. Re-Volt has rubberband AI.
Rubberband AI = regardless what car you use, if the AI overtakes you they will slow down. If you overtake them, they will speed up.
Interesting terminology, kind of true.
zipperrulez @ Friday, Jul 29 2011, 21:19 wrote:Here's a great test track for this sort of thing.
http://rvzt.zackattackgames.com/main/co ... +Ice+Speed
That zip includes two tracks actually, one is concrete, the other ice. Use the concrete.
Don't know where this has gone to now we use RVZ ?
But I created a track for high speed testing which works just as good in defining this issue.
F1 Dragstrip Test Track
huki @ Saturday, Jul 30 2011, 21:44 wrote:
KDL @ Jul 30 2011, 05:50 PM wrote:That's weird, everything in Re-Volt source say: "the parameters of Ai-cars are equals directly to players', no changes at all"
Except...
Very interesting, the formula for the 'Rubberband Effect'. Have these variables been verified and tested to see if a degree of Rubberband Effect difficulty can be implemented ?
Nero @ Friday, Mar 9 2012, 17:07 wrote:I said it many times before, the game uses rubberband AI. It is only noticable on tracks with long straights. You cannot turn it off, unless you have programming skills, like Huki. He has toned down the rubberband effect greatly by the 1.2 12.0107 patch, but it seems he's too stubborn and isn't prepared to turn it _completely_ off.
Huki has toned down the rubberband effect greatly, really ? The effect looks exactly the same to me.
Skarma @ Friday, Mar 9 2012, 22:39 wrote:Oh boo. You lost to an AI car because it's faster than you. Seriously?

Why do you care about this SO MUCH? And you're trying to emphasise that it makes the races unfair? This is the only way it CAN be a fair race, have you not noticed how much the AI can love up especially on the stock tracks? Unless you're intentionally messing around or using a slower/bad handling car you would (almost) always win so I don't see the problem here.
Some of us are not expert or even reasonable quality racer's, :mellow: so it sometimes feel's unfair.
Citywalker @ Saturday, Mar 10 2012, 03:40 wrote:...there is fair (as in “give a guy a chance, would ya?”), and there’s fair (as in “racing on equal terms”).
Right now we have the first kind of “fair” that is actually patronising. “Well, boo-hoo, the player can’t keep up. Here, let’s slow down the AI a bit.” and “Weeelll, let’s not make this race boring for him, let’s give him the feeling that we’re breathing down on his neck. Speed up those AIs, but only until we reach him.”
Do you notice the pattern?
On the other hand, racing on equal terms would be maybe more boring for some people (get ahead and stay ahead, or fall behind and stay behind), but that’s also how it is in real life, you know.
Bottom line: rubberband AI should be optional, because people react differently to it. I don’t know how long we have to petition for Huki to make it so, but we should continue petitioning. Re-Volt was made as a children’s game, but it has progressed beyond that after all...
Nicely said.
Rolci @ Saturday, Mar 10 2012, 11:10 wrote:...I especially get annoyed when I mess up and fall behind, only to see the car(s) before me slow down, so I can catch up. And I notice that and tell myself: "I don't need that, I can do it on my own, don't humiliate me, I'm good enough of a racer to catch you up". So when you win, was it because you're a seasoned racer? Or was it because the AI let you? Think about that before you all become overconfident. And it's not true that it is only long stretches. The AI does not measure stretches and make a decision whether it's long enough or not to activate the rubberband effect. The RB effect is there, always, but it's more obvious and noticable on long stretches. On short ones (that is, throughout the whole track really) it's still there but the effect is small. But it does add up. RB should be optional, just like junior mode and simple collisions mode.  There could be a separate menu for it on/off, like the difficulty menu where you choose (or rather leave it set on) simulation.
      (Rolci @ Saturday, Oct 19 2013, 00:20)
Another feature of this "bug" is that if you fall behind a bit at the beginning of  a race, you can catch any particular car up easily. However, when you gain a whole lap advantage over that particular car and you move up to right behind it, and it is a straight stretch of the track and you both drive as fast as you can, the other car will always be faster and moving away from you.  ..knowing that all the cars behind you are fixed, like you're fixed when you're behind, as if anyone falling behind were given an unfair advantage of invisible booster rockets. Although I do realize that if all cars' max speeds were constant then the slightly slower cars would be continuously falling behind further and further, which is probably why the rubberband had been invented. But still unfair. When I catch my opponents up I'd like to know that it was because I was driving well and deserved it, and not because the AI slowed down all the cars before me. Is there a way around this?
Factual observations, I've seen these myself.

This question has always troubled me, as I thought it was something that could possibly be adjusted in the parameters. I found that your car can have a speed difference of +/- 4-5 mph and the effect still happens.

So ! Is this effect something that can be added to the menu to be adjusted in game setup, or could there be a switch implemented into the cars parameters file ?

Has Huki or anyone else looked further into this ? :)
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ThugsRook
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8 Feb 2015, 04:26 AM #2

^ all true.

still the problems remains that the game is too easy, with or w/o rubberbanding.

the bots are still dumb as rocks, driving directly into instances and objects like they dont even know they are there. (because they dont)

much of this problem is due to lousy track AI.

the only part that has become more difficult is that the bots are nastier with the weapons, thats about it.
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Abc
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8 Feb 2015, 05:44 AM #3

what's the point to make a racing game for kids hard?
new AI sucks pretty much overall.
I'm nastier than the ai, i dont see how they increased nastyness, they dont fire on pickups to grab a new weapon, they rarely put clone picks, they only shoot on sight and fast.
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Manmountain
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8 Feb 2015, 02:50 PM #4

ThugsRook @ Feb 8 2015, 05:26 AM wrote:the bots are still dumb as rocks, driving directly into instances and objects like they dont even know they are there. (because they dont)

much of this problem is due to lousy track AI.
Yes exactly, but an adjustable degree of RB effect might also provide a challenge ratio to suit the player.
Nero @ Sunday, Feb 8 2015, 09:36 from RVL wrote:
Nero @ Saturday, Feb 7 2015, 20:21 wrote: Rubberband AI. Huki disabled it in 13.0815 then re-enabled a toned down version of the rubberband AI since 13.0820.
Not much else to discuss here, really.
I have not notice a "toned down" to this effect.
I think that your own driving skill greatly negates how this effect, effect's you, basically you don't notice it as much if at all.
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Citywalker
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8 Feb 2015, 03:53 PM #5

ABC, the point of better AI and rubbebanding is better visible when racing without pickups.
With pickups, too much of the race is random luck instead of skills.

And it's not a kids game anymore, for many of us.
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nero
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8 Feb 2015, 05:03 PM #6

Manmountain @ Feb 8 2015, 02:50 PM wrote:I have not notice a "toned down" to this effect.
I think that your own driving skill greatly negates how this effect, effect's you, basically you don't notice it as much if at all.
Right, grab WolfR4 and the 1207 patch. Make an extremely fast car a Rookie, then try it out at Test Course 6. As you're driving, you'll notice that every AI car has a Saturn 5 rocket attached to their asses.

Do the same thing in a recent 1.2 patch, and you'll notice they're only a few mph quicker.
Saffron.
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Manmountain
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8 Feb 2015, 05:58 PM #7

nero @ Feb 8 2015, 06:03 PM wrote:Right, grab WolfR4 and the 1207 patch. Make an extremely fast car a Rookie, then try it out at Test Course 6. As you're driving, you'll notice that every AI car has a Saturn 5 rocket attached to their asses.
If you say so ! :rolleyes:

Didn't notice the rocket's though, is that a gfx glitch ? lol :P

I don't and never have used WolfR4.
I don't drive, test or setup for Rookie cars, sorry. I use 40+mph pro cars with extreme parameters which exaggerates the effect as acceleration and braking are a lot quicker.

Not to put a too finer point on this, but you do seem quite hostile/snippy towards the discussion of this "Rubberband Effect" (as you have termed), and whether it is something that can be adjusted. Both at RVL and here. :mellow:
If it is not an issue or something you are not even bothered about, then please could I ask that you refrain from the negative statements. Thanks. :)
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revolting
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8 Feb 2015, 07:22 PM #8

ThugsRook @ Feb 8 2015, 05:26 AM wrote: ^ all true.

still the problems remains that the game is too easy, with or w/o rubberbanding.

the bots are still dumb as rocks, driving directly into instances and objects like they dont even know they are there. (because they dont)

much of this problem is due to lousy track AI.

the only part that has become more difficult is that the bots are nastier with the weapons, thats about it.
I've seen it :) anyway "They will certainly fight against you,

But they will not prevail against you"
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ThugsRook
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9 Feb 2015, 04:00 PM #9

an obvious problem...

if im racing as an RC Bandit, and im right next to RC Bandit, RC Bandit is slower then i am every time.

^ thats part of the main problem right there.
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ThugsRook
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10 Feb 2015, 05:59 AM #10

Abc @ Feb 8 2015, 06:44 AM wrote: they dont fire on pickups to grab a new weapon...
oh yes they do!

which version are you running?

you need to watch -gogodemo more often ;)
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Abc
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10 Feb 2015, 10:53 PM #11

ThugsRook @ Feb 10 2015, 02:59 AM wrote:
Abc @ Feb 8 2015, 06:44 AM wrote: they dont fire on pickups to grab a new weapon...
oh yes they do!

which version are you running?

you need to watch -gogodemo more often ;)
Heh, Demos are too long and infinite laps and doesn't change track automatically after a while unlike frontend one.
They rarely do as you say, actually, they appear to be the same weapon ai for me, you cant avoid the rockets from them most of time, but you perfectly can against humans lol!
the latest alphas that do have huki ai, actually they dont because it uses the AI thing in parameters (0820 and up?)
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ThugsRook
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10 Feb 2015, 11:59 PM #12

im running v150131.

the bots weapons behavior is pretty good IMO. the bots need to able to race tho! which right now as is, they aint doing too well. load Toytanic 2 (Reversed) and just watch the bots. please, im serious, watch it.

more importantly bot speed needs to be corrected. there is NO REASON why while racing identicle cars a bot is slower. thats just plain stupid. if anything a bot should be ever so slightly faster than you.

:huh:
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Kenny
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11 Feb 2015, 12:56 AM #13

ThugsRook @ Feb 11 2015, 12:59 AM wrote: more importantly bot speed needs to be corrected. there is NO REASON why while racing identicle cars a bot is slower. thats just plain stupid. if anything a bot should be ever so slightly faster than you.
I don't know why but as far as I can tell all people complaining about this feature seem to only look at one side of the coin (bots go either faster or slower than they are supposed to) when in fact it goes both ways.
When cars are in front of you they go slower to allow you to catch up, on the other hand they go faster when they fall back too far, its as simple as that.

The reason for this is simply to get more enjoyment out of the game/race, at least if done properly (which is a different issue).
However since its barely noticable in the game I wouldn't say that its a big issue or even an "unfair" feature.
Either way the game had this included like this ever since it was originally released so I see no reason to suddenly completely remove it from the game. Sure, an option would be nice but even then it should be enabled by default (speaking of "original and untouched" experience...).
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jigebren
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11 Feb 2015, 01:46 AM #14

Kenny @ Feb 11 2015, 01:56 AM wrote:The reason for this is simply to get more enjoyment out of the game/race, at least if done properly (which is a different issue).
However since its barely noticeable in the game I wouldn't say that its a big issue or even an "unfair" feature.
+1

BTW I have two opposite examples about this. The first one was Mario Kart on SNES (ie. the true, the REAL and only Mario Kart :P ), where the AI were so blatantly cheating that it was soon getting on the nerves. The can fire several weapons without ever getting a pickup, the can jump above your attacks while you can't, etc. And even after your best race ever they would still be one guy just being your back, waiting to overtake you at your first mistake... This was really unfair, and would I had been able to disable it, I would have done it right now.

Another one was a XBOX 1 racing game (Project Gotham Racing maybe) I played with my brother (he was really better than me, the XBOX was his...). But when he was first I usually have no way to catch him ever. It was so boring... So when I played with another friend (I was better than him this time), I noticed how I really used to wait for him each time I was first, because racing alone was actually no fun. So yes, in the name of fun, I was rubberbanding...
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Abc
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11 Feb 2015, 06:55 AM #15

I agree with that.
few notes about it:
Jig and Huki: Why AI dont follow their nodes 100%? they randomly crash sometimes.
And they fall at speed, you know, we do speedy turns, why ai shouldnt too? and maybe make revolt ai a self-learner from player movements?

also please add an option for fresh features!! (we hate "aggressively injected" features, like AI, Time Trial (example of that an option has been added), rubberbanding, etc


offtopic but: Will the idea of a dedicated server in re-volt be ever implemented and what about automatic next on race end? (its annoying sometimes when the host goes afk, you know...) and of course, all of that with an OPTION!!!
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11 Feb 2015, 11:33 AM #16

Abc @ Feb 11 2015, 03:55 AM wrote: offtopic but: Will the idea of a dedicated server in re-volt be ever implemented and what about automatic next on race end? (its annoying sometimes when the host goes afk, you know...) and of course, all of that with an OPTION!!!
You are the only one that always takes years to change track :P
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Manmountain
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11 Feb 2015, 01:34 PM #17

Kenny @ Feb 11 2015, 01:56 AM wrote:When cars are in front of you they go slower to allow you to catch up, on the other hand they go faster when they fall back too far, its as simple as that.
The reason for this is simply to get more enjoyment out of the game/race, at least if done properly (which is a different issue).
However since its barely noticable in the game I wouldn't say that its a big issue or even an "unfair" feature.
Either way the game had this included like this ever since it was originally released so I see no reason to suddenly completely remove it from the game. Sure, an option would be nice but even then it should be enabled by default (speaking of "original and untouched" experience...).
I don't believe anyone want's to "completely remove it", but rather would like an option to control or adjust the effect. Some may want the effect increased, so an adjustment scale or percentage above or below normal/default would be ideal.
Abc @ Feb 11 2015, 07:55 AM wrote:Jig and Huki: Why AI dont follow their nodes 100%? they randomly crash sometimes.
And they fall at speed, you know, we do speedy turns, why ai shouldnt too? and maybe make revolt ai a self-learner from player movements?
A shoddy track AI accounts for most of your issues, the AI cars do what they are limited to by their own parameters and the tracks "DO THIS NOW" AI. Which is probably why the rubberband effect was implemented.

Your suggested idea for a "self-learner" AI sounds intriguing.
The game calculates a ghost car for time trials, so if we could utilise this to rewrite the approaching AI node to correspond with your own approach then the car AI may seem to improve.
Obviously at least one lap would have to have been driven, and the alteriation should be applied if your leading.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Just to clarify the topic.
Is it possible to alter the rubberband effect, if yes, could this be implemented and self adjusted as part of a setup menu ?
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11 Feb 2015, 01:40 PM #18

Abc @ Feb 11 2015, 07:55 AM wrote:And they fall at speed, you know, we do speedy turns, why ai shouldnt too? and maybe make revolt ai a self-learner from player movements?
AI tuning is no longer in my priority. If it changes from the original, even for the better, we'll get complaints. And I'm not going to spend hours of work for an optional feature that could at best be activated by default only for the stock tracks and newly created user tracks.

And we're not going to add an option for everything either. It would be ridiculous, if we had listened to all requests so far Re-Volt would be more a control panel software than a racing game. :rolleyes: Sometime choices have to be made to keep a kind of consistency between all players. Either a feature is a keeper, or it's not. If it really has an added value in both cases, then it could be made optional. But any option means: double the code, double the maintenance, and in case of bug report we have to guess whether this or that option was active or not...
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Manmountain
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11 Feb 2015, 01:52 PM #19

jigebren @ Feb 11 2015, 02:40 PM wrote:And we're not going to add an option for everything either. It would be ridiculous, if we had listened to all requests so far Re-Volt would be more a control panel software than a racing game.  :rolleyes: Sometime choices have to be made to keep a kind of consistency between all players. Either a feature is a keeper, or it's not. If it really has an added value in both cases, then it could be made optional. But any option means: double the code, double the maintenance, and in case of bug report we have to guess whether this or that option was active or not...
Good point, well said ! :thumbs-up:

The topic was to confirm the effect and inspire possible ideas, not only just for RV1.2.

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nuff said. ;)
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11 Feb 2015, 05:31 PM #20

jigebren @ Feb 11 2015, 10:40 AM wrote: And we're not going to add an option for everything either. It would be ridiculous, if we had listened to all requests so far Re-Volt would be more a control panel software than a racing game. :rolleyes: Sometime choices have to be made to keep a kind of consistency between all players. Either a feature is a keeper, or it's not. If it really has an added value in both cases, then it could be made optional. But any option means: double the code, double the maintenance, and in case of bug report we have to guess whether this or that option was active or not...
Well, not everything but at least "dramatic" features, look at us, there's like half of us who want an option. add some sort of log or config dumper to the game so you guys know :) (or make revolt send usage data to you guys, like firefox)
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revolting
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13 Feb 2015, 03:29 AM #21

Excellent and well spoken Jig and Man, as for the last option Abc is talking about, sounds great, "sending usage data so they can improve the game :)"

You certainly are skillful Jig, otherwise the game would look bad :)

Personally I would go back to the original AI it was funnier, all of the cars were such fools, you could easily beat them and whenever you want a really hard race just ask riki, kispette, Meza, Balint, Snir levi, and so many others that are way better than any imaginable AI :)
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revolting
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19 Feb 2015, 10:23 PM #22

I really like the improvements to the AI so I agree the varying speeds are needed at times, but specially for newbies and to enjoy the game and still have fun (even for a demonstration) I'd prefer the older AI
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20 Feb 2015, 05:51 PM #23

revolting @ 19 Feb 2015, 07:23 PM wrote: I really like the improvements to the AI so I agree the varying speeds are needed at times, but specially for newbies and to enjoy the game and still have fun (even for a demonstration) I'd prefer the older AI
+1

Huki: Put the option please!
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ThugsRook
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20 Feb 2015, 06:09 PM #24

the AI is always behind me and never catches up. this does get kinda boring pretty fast.

old racing games were based on being last and having to make your way up to 1st. in revolt that happens before the 1st lap is even completed.


one thing i did notice about new AI, they take stupid longcuts in Museum 2 and Ghost Town 1, destroying all chances of a decent race. (suspension type bug?)

track AI is the major problem. soft suspension cars being forced to take slow longcuts thru dirt, hills, bumps, and jumping curbs, while hard suspension rides solidly on the sidewalk etc.

:unsure:
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20 Feb 2015, 09:05 PM #25

ThugsRook @ 20 Feb 2015, 03:09 PM wrote: the AI is always behind me and never catches up. this does get kinda boring pretty fast.

old racing games were based on being last and having to make your way up to 1st. in revolt that happens before the 1st lap is even completed.


one thing i did notice about new AI, they take stupid longcuts in Museum 2 and Ghost Town 1, destroying all chances of a decent race. (suspension type bug?)

track AI is the major problem. soft suspension cars being forced to take slow longcuts thru dirt, hills, bumps, and jumping curbs, while hard suspension rides solidly on the sidewalk etc.

:unsure:
+1

rubberbanding is a bit exaggerated here it seems.

mario kart, for example, is too easy, in fact in mario kart wii its ridiculously easier to win the race.

for some reason some ai nodes functionality are either useless or bad depending in the area and the car and the game conditions at a given time
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revolting
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22 Feb 2015, 12:34 AM #26

@ThugsRook
Have you Tried driving a slower car against faster ones or be outlying of them for a couple seconds? :)
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Manmountain
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27 Feb 2015, 09:05 PM #27

Iko @ 27 Feb 2015, 11:57 AM wrote:Sorry for being repetitive (I already made this suggestion in the old suggestions thread that got locked), and sorry if many people consider this as an irrelevant topic, but I think that there should be an option for enabling/disabling the catchup/rubberbanding effect from the AI.

Honestly, I'm fine with all the changes that 1.2 brought to Re-Volt, but the rubberbanding (and the new way of managing the explosions, but that's another matter*) is the only thing that I don't like.

Some time ago, me and my brother made a clone of the NY54 car and changed its class to pro, just to run against Toyeca and Humma that have superior parameters. The rubberbanding effect kills the fun of doing those experiments, it removes depth to the game; but at the same way, I can see why it's needed. It depends on how the player wants to play the game. So, why not an option for enabling/disabling it?

------

The point of this thread is, every time a change (that's not completely a bug-fix but rather a change of gameplay) is made, there should also be an option to restore it like it was in the original Re-Volt.
Just adding Iko's opinion to this topic. ^_^
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revolting
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8 Mar 2015, 12:03 AM #28

Quick question: Is the rubberbanding effect on action while racing online? might have an impact on the lag? Imma grin if you answer yes!
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9 Mar 2015, 04:54 PM #29

revolting @ 7 Mar 2015, 09:03 PM wrote: Quick question: Is the rubberbanding effect on action while racing online? might have an impact on the lag? Imma grin if you answer yes!
I guess not because AI tweaks do not apply
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