Cab designs for big rigs

Non-military technology.

Cab designs for big rigs

Ghost 2501
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Ghost 2501
12% Armaments Designer
Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 09:45

08 Aug 2012, 15:30 #1







top to bottom
Diamond Star TerraStar XL-R
Diamond Star TerraStar XL90 raised roof sleeper
Diamond Star TerraStar RX mid roof sleeper

TerraStar RX and XL spec
Weights:
Gross combination weight 44,000kgs
unladen weight 9,000kgs
*Chassis cab weight includes 20 litres of fuel, oil

Maximum axle loading weights (measured in Kg's)
Axle 1: 7,500
Axle 2: 11,500
Axle 3: 11,500

Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec2 Aircooled Diesel
Capacity: 12.7 litre V8
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm
Compression ratio: 15:1

max power @ 1500rpm 320bhp to 480bhp
max torque @ 1500rpm 2000nm
Engine weight: 1,500kg

Emissions control
Adblue injection
SCR (diesel engine catalyst)
Exhaust Gas Recirculation

Fluid capacities:
Oil: 50 litres

Cooling: forced air cooling with thermostatically regulated oil driven fan

Fuel consumption
36/100km

Gearbox options
Option 1: Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic
Option 2: Diamond Star 12 speed Synchromesh manual
Gearbox oil capacity: 20 litres

drivetrain: 6x2 mid drive rear tag axle

Brakes
Electro-pneumatic ABS discs on all axles with
hill-hold facility, parking brake applied on all 3 axles and trailer brakes

Tyres
Axle 1 - 315/65R24.5 radial tubeless tyres
Axle 2 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres
Axle 3 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres

Suspension
Axle 1
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension Anti-roll bar.

Axle 2
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension

Axle 3
Two bag electroncially controlled pneumatic suspension,

Frame
Type: Flat top constant depth ‘U’ channel with welded and riveted crossmembers
Sidemember Dimensions:
300 x 100 x 15mm
Width over parallel section of frame = 770mm

Cross-members: 5
732mm wide
I-beam sections
100 x 500mm plate top brace
270 x 15mm vertical section

Bumper deep profile design including Front under-run protection


--

TerraStar XL-R spec
Weights:
Gross combination weight 44,000kgs
unladen weight 8,500kgs
*Chassis cab weight includes 20 litres of fuel, oil

Maximum axle loading weights (measured in Kg's)
Axle 1: 7,500
Axle 2: 11,500
Axle 3: 11,500

Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec2 Aircooled Diesel
Capacity: 19.1 Litre V12
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm
Compression ratio: 15:1

max power @ 1500rpm 750bhp
max torque @ 1500rpm 3500nm
Engine weight: 1,800kg

Emissions control
Adblue injection
SCR (diesel engine catalyst)
Exhaust Gas Recirculation

Fluid capacities:
Oil: 50 litres

Cooling: forced air cooling with thermostatically regulated oil driven fan

Fuel consumption
38L/100km

Gearbox options
Option 1: Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic
Gearbox oil capacity: 20 litres

Brakes
Electro-pneumatic ABS discs on all axles with
hill-hold facility, parking brake applied on all 3 axles and trailer brakes

Tyres
Axle 1 - 315/65R24.5 radial tubeless tyres
Axle 2 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres (X4)
Axle 3 - 315/80R24.5 radial tubeless tyres (X2 - steer axle)
Suspension
Axle 1
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension . Anti-roll bar.

Axle 2
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension

Axle 3
Two bag electroncially controlled pneumatic suspension.

Frame
Type: Flat top constant depth ‘U’ channel with welded and riveted crossmembers
Sidemember Dimensions:
300 x 100 x 15mm
Width over parallel section of frame = 770mm

Cross-members: 5
732mm wide
I-beam sections
100 x 500mm plate top brace
300 x 15mm vertical section

Bumper deep profile design including Front under-run protection

-

before people get saying that the cab is to big, There was a Freightliner Argosy with a similar length cab, and there are a few conventional trucks with similar (and larger) sleeper boxes behind the driving position. The XL-R is not significantly longer than a Freightliner Cascadia or Coronado.
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Ghost 2501
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Ghost 2501
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Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 09:45

08 Aug 2012, 15:48 #2

moved in thread
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United States of PA
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United States of PA
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009, 16:47

09 Aug 2012, 05:01 #3

First off is the first picture a real truck? Cause if so i have serious doubts about the ability to raise the cab safely for maintenance.



Engine spec- 12 litre V8
Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec Air cooled Sleeve Valve V8
Capacity: 12.7 litre
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm

max power @ 1500rpm 420 - 520bhp
max torque @ 1500rpm 1500Nm - 2100Nm
Engine weight: 1,600kg
Why a V-8? There is a reason for example why V8s fell out of use in the US pretty much after the mid 70s. If your going to stick with a V8, than why so much displacement for so little power? A Good 8V92 Detroit will do 700hp easy (This is actuality, not all the listed factory numbers) on 12.1L, and 8V71 Detroits have been known to give 550-600hp easy on 9.3L.

Rev numbers are low for a V8, 1500rpm is low to middle running speed for a Inline 6 (1300rpm to 1800rpm max), V8s typically need to run at around 2100rpm to achieve max Horsepower Ratings. Torque ratings would seem right at 1300rpm though.

Engine weight seems a little heavy by about 200kg, though that could be chocked up to Emissions control.

I dont know enough about Sleeve Valves to comment other than that i read they apparently only have a 3,000hour operational life. That translate to like, roughly 195,000mi of use. That is beyond lubriciously low. Regular Poppet Valve'd engines can last for millions of miles (My dads one friend made it 5mn miles between overhauls) with proper maintenance and care. With the amount that truckers need to be moving, that could very well kill a business due to operational costs.


Also, dont air cool a Semi Engine. Thats the easiest way to crack head's and everything. One saying i've heard that can outline this is that "You can run at 195 degrees with water in it, but without it your gonna to have problem after problem". 195 degrees being in Fahrenheit, your going to hit that going up a short hill empty, let alone loaded.

Engine fan should also be clutched to a switch on the dash so the driver can decide whether or not to turn the fan on or not. At least that's the way i've seen it on every truck i've been around.

Fluid capacities:
Oil: 50 litres
seems high by about 4.5L, but not to bad

Engine spec 19 litre V12 (the big one)
Engine
Diamond Star Q-tec Air cooled Sleeve Valve V12
Capacity: 19.1 litre V12
Bore: 125mm
Stroke: 130mm
Compression ratio: 15:1

max power @ 1500rpm 600 - 750bhp
max torque @ 2800Nm - 3500Nm
Engine weight: 1,600kg
Displacement is incredibly large for a V-12. The 12V71 only had 14L of displacement, which is the only V12 you typically see in trucks around here. Again, horsepower is low, 12V71s typically pushed 800hp easy in reality. Engine weight may be ok, or it may be low, i dont know off hand cause i dont have any documents readily available to tell me how much a 12V71 weighed.

Torque again seems ok, just need to drop rev speeds to 1300rpm, and raise Horsepower ones to 2100rpm for them to be properly accurate.


Maximum axle loading weights (measured in Kg's)
Axle 1: 7500
Axle 2: 11500
Axle 3: 7500
Front axle is much to heavy. I've never seen one in practical use over 14,000lbs (6350kg) and most, even on cabovers are 12,000lb axles (5444kg).

Rear two axles should almost always be the same weight. 11,500kg is incredibly light at just 25,000lbs. Most are in the 30,000 to 40,000lbs (13600-18200kg) range because you never know the weight distribution or simply weight of your cargo.

Diamond Star Intelidrive 12 speed Automatic
From a trucking standpoint, no trucker in his/her right mind would take a automatic. While its ok to keep the option, dont make it the only one. Also, one transmission for everything wont do. 12spd transmissions are typically good for backroad or off road style situations, but are sorely undergeared (Or overgeared, depending on how you look at it) for highway work, where you need a 13 Double Over, 15spd, or 18spd.

Really, look at it this way, under 13 is good for when you spend a lot of your time off road, while 13 can work both ways depending on the transmissions, with options like RTO (Overdrive), RTLO (Lower first gear, higher Overdrive) and Double Over (13spd with a extra Overdrive gear or two). Whereas 15spds and 18spds are really geared almost exclusively towards highway work.


Suspension
Axle 1
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension
Anti-roll bar.

Axle 2
Two bag electronically controled pneumatic suspension

Axle 3
Two bag electroncially controlled pneumatic suspension,
2 additional front mounted airbag can be fitted to retract
the axle off the ground when running in an unladen condition
I have yet to see any truck with Airbags on the steer axle, drop them. Regular Leaf Spring + Shock Absorbers.


Switch the rear two axles. You never raise the rear one because thats the one that always has power going too it, whereas the front rear can be switched on and off in terms to whether or not power is going to it.

Also, if your really smart, you'll go with Low Air Leaf, where you put a Airbag on the back side of the Axle, and a leaf spring on the front half, gives the best ride compared to eight bag (What you basically described) and any type of spring (Camelback, etc.)


Frame
Type: Flat top constant depth ‘U’ channel with welded and riveted crossmembers
Sidemember Dimensions:
300 x 100 x 9.5mm
Width over parallel section of frame = 770mm

You never, ever, ever, EVER use Rivets or welds on a semi frame. You cast individually the separate parts and than bolt them all together for the greatest strength. Welds break, rivets work themselves loose with no easy way to tighten them back up. With bolts, get a Air Impact gun and a wrench and problem solved.


Much of what i said here applies to both trucks, just so you know.
Ekraysia: I have to say, comparing your military equipment to that of the average NSer would be like comparing the T-34 to a hastily up-armoured elderly horse.
Too Lyras and Lamoni in the LY9/M22 Discussion thread

Sumer: But, as they say: When the pin is pulled, Mr.Grenade is not our friend.

USPA:Tenskwatawa is supposed to be crapped
USPA: wait
USPA: nvm
Lamoni: lol
Lamoni: That's the first time that i've heard of a sub coming out of THAT crack!
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Falls
You have way too much time on your hands ...
Falls
You have way too much time on your hands ...
Joined: 06 Jun 2007, 01:13

09 Aug 2012, 05:14 #4

the first one just looks like an extended sleeper, I seriously doubt its cab over for maintenance though. Certainly ive never seen an extended sleeper in that configuration so I dont disagree.

I looked on the Scania website breifly(looks like Scania trucks to me) but couldnt find an extended sleeper. Scania still uses V8s...LOL.
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United States of PA
74% Armaments Designer
United States of PA
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009, 16:47

09 Aug 2012, 12:10 #5

It is a Cabover, otherwise it would have a normal hood. Theres no side panels too remove to get at the engine, and like i said, i seriously suspect that that cab is far too heavy to raise up easily. At most you'd see something like the second pic, and anyone who wants a bigger bunk on a cabover does this.


Ekraysia: I have to say, comparing your military equipment to that of the average NSer would be like comparing the T-34 to a hastily up-armoured elderly horse.
Too Lyras and Lamoni in the LY9/M22 Discussion thread

Sumer: But, as they say: When the pin is pulled, Mr.Grenade is not our friend.

USPA:Tenskwatawa is supposed to be crapped
USPA: wait
USPA: nvm
Lamoni: lol
Lamoni: That's the first time that i've heard of a sub coming out of THAT crack!
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Falls
You have way too much time on your hands ...
Falls
You have way too much time on your hands ...
Joined: 06 Jun 2007, 01:13

09 Aug 2012, 14:08 #6

"Certainly ive never seen an extended sleeper in that configuration so I dont disagree."
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Ghost 2501
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Ghost 2501
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Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 09:45

09 Aug 2012, 16:49 #7

there was a LCS kenworth K100 in white that had been extended, and retained its tilt cab, also there are floor hatches.

have a look also at the Scania Longliner :)


Axle weights are based on Euro weights.

and too big to tilt???


US of PA wrote:Switch the rear two axles. You never raise the rear one because thats the one that always has power going too it, whereas the front rear can be switched on and off in terms to whether or not power is going to it
Tag-rear axles is another Euroformat, the rear "tag axle", seen on this Scania 3-series in the lifted position is unpowered, as evidence here


and this 2012 Scania R580 (16 litre v8)

Scania still offer the tag axle layout
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Ghost 2501
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Ghost 2501
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Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 09:45

09 Aug 2012, 16:58 #8

as for air cooling, magirus deutz did a 19.1 air cooled and that went in an Iveco semi truck, and TATRA, the czech truck maker still use Air cooled engines in their trucks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_815

As for Euro trucks
Merc only offer the Telegent Autoshift,
Volvo's new I-shift is standard on the new FH and its a 12 speed auto. :D I think its standard on the VN as well over in the states.

and as for the engines not giving as much power as a detroit 8v71, thats a 2stroke. most I have seen from a modern 12 litre is 520bhp.

a
Scania rivet their frames. I just added the welds for additional strength. (its the Euro way)

As for air ride front, it is rare but it does happen, usually on fragile goods rigids here in Europe.

Those axle weights again, they would be the MAX weights that the truck is able to load at, there is of course local legislation to come into play, and they would set the load plates. Here in the EU, 6 axles on a tractor trailer = 44,000kgs, where USA permits 88,000lbs. (around 36,000kg)

here are the weights of a Scania R730 6x2 Tag axle, these weights, particularly the LEGAL IN GB is what gave my figure, most trucks would be in the same range as they would be designed for 44,000kgs. Currently only Scania and Volvo offer tag axles, most are mid lift instead of rear lift but I do frequently see rear-lift tractor units. when raised its a more manouvrable tractor unit as the wb is shorter than a mid lift
Gross Kg (1)7500† (2)11500 (3)7500 (gvw)26500 (gcw)60000
Legal
Max in GB Kg (1)7500 (2)11000 (3)7100 (GVW)25200 (GCW)44000
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Ghost 2501
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Ghost 2501
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Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 09:45

09 Aug 2012, 18:54 #9

and as for sleeve valves,

as various engines have piston liners betweem the piston and the bore, I have decided to use this as the basis as the sleeve valve and mounted the bottom of it to a crank and gear arrangement, similar to the Napier Sabre. Im pretty sure that modern metals technology will mean that the sleeves will last a lot longer than the 1940s ones in the Bristol Hercules.
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no endorse
You have way too much time on your hands ...
no endorse
You have way too much time on your hands ...
Joined: 11 Apr 2007, 01:21

09 Aug 2012, 23:04 #10

I simply can't, under any circumstance not involving an OPOC engine, get behind sleeve valves. I think it's a bad move, and that your wear characteristics will be atrocious.

But most of all, I think it's incredible that you're preventing yourself from using direct injection. That's a wholly bad move.

IRC wrote:[22:39]Spizania: A chain is a unit of length; it measures 66 feet or 22 yards or 4 rods or 100 links[1] (20.1168m). <<< This is why Britian ruled the world
[22:39]Spizania: we created a system of measurements noone else could understand
[17:57] matinsky theres only one thing that can save saxon england
[17:57] matinsky ...
[17:57] matinsky ...
[17:57] Rosdivan Frogs?
[17:57] matinsky a mark XXXIII bolo
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Forza
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Forza
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Joined: 22 Oct 2010, 08:29

10 Aug 2012, 00:03 #11

no endorse @ Aug 10 2012, 12:04 AM wrote: I simply can't, under any circumstance not involving an OPOC engine, get behind sleeve valves. I think it's a bad move, and that your wear characteristics will be atrocious.

But most of all, I think it's incredible that you're preventing yourself from using direct injection. That's a wholly bad move.
Flaws and issues of sleeve valves aside, I'm pretty sure you can still use a sleeve valve engine with a seperate DI port. I know the OPOC does it.

Sleeve valves come across as being suitable for large luxury cars where smoothness is essential and reliability doesn't matter. Trucks happen to be the polar opposite of those sorts of cars though. It's a very questionable application to me.
Qui Patitur Vincit - Who perseveres, conquers.
You'll Never Walk Alone
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no endorse
You have way too much time on your hands ...
no endorse
You have way too much time on your hands ...
Joined: 11 Apr 2007, 01:21

10 Aug 2012, 05:55 #12

Sleeve valves really just don't come across as worthwhile under near any circumstances, modern multiport engines offer all the benefits and none of the drawbacks.

IRC wrote:[22:39]Spizania: A chain is a unit of length; it measures 66 feet or 22 yards or 4 rods or 100 links[1] (20.1168m). <<< This is why Britian ruled the world
[22:39]Spizania: we created a system of measurements noone else could understand
[17:57] matinsky theres only one thing that can save saxon england
[17:57] matinsky ...
[17:57] matinsky ...
[17:57] Rosdivan Frogs?
[17:57] matinsky a mark XXXIII bolo
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United States of PA
74% Armaments Designer
United States of PA
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Joined: 10 Jul 2009, 16:47

10 Aug 2012, 16:16 #13

Forza @ Aug 10 2012, 01:03 AM wrote:
no endorse @ Aug 10 2012, 12:04 AM wrote: I simply can't, under any circumstance not involving an OPOC engine, get behind sleeve valves. I think it's a bad move, and that your wear characteristics will be atrocious.

But most of all, I think it's incredible that you're preventing yourself from using direct injection. That's a wholly bad move.
Flaws and issues of sleeve valves aside, I'm pretty sure you can still use a sleeve valve engine with a seperate DI port. I know the OPOC does it.

Sleeve valves come across as being suitable for large luxury cars where smoothness is essential and reliability doesn't matter. Trucks happen to be the polar opposite of those sorts of cars though. It's a very questionable application to me.
This on Sleeved Valves, why fuck with a already proven formula of Poppet Valves (Four per cylinder is best imho). European Truck engines generally last less than half as long as Caterpillar Engines as it is, and Detroits typically last even longer.

Volvo's new I-shift is standard on the new FH and its a 12 speed auto.&nbsp; I think its standard on the VN as well over in the states.
The only people/companies in the US who use Volvo's in the US are the big giants like Walmart and Weis's, or those who dont have enough money to afford a proper truck (Kenworth and Peterbilt). The number of manual PACCARs and Macks to automatic's i estimate to be at about 50-1, based on what you can find for sale on places like Ebay or truckpaper.com


As comfortable as many Volvo's are, they are Pieces of Shit compared to Kenworths and Pete's, hence why they cost about half as much. Same with Freightliner, International, Western Star and etc. Only Mack comes close to PACCAR (Pete & Kenworth) in terms of quality, and thats in a more confined terms/space of use than PACCAR, they arent nearly as comfortable over the road, but are generally better offroad.

and as for the engines not giving as much power as a detroit 8v71, thats a 2stroke. most I have seen from a modern 12 litre is 520bhp.
Thats still insanely pisspoor, Cat 3408s is Four Stroke (IIRC) and while displacing more, also pushes 800hp on average in practice. While V8s are not particularly common in the US anymore, for comparison, i dont know of where you can easily get ahold of a new V8 anymore, but your average Inline 6 is 550hp anymore, often times over 625hp, and manages far better fuel efficiency (2mpg more from the 8v71 to the 60 Series Detroit, about the same from the 3408 to the 3406)


Scania rivet their frames. I just added the welds for additional strength. (its the Euro way)
Does Scania now? Well let me repeat, You do not Rivet frames if you have half a mind, you put grade 8 bolts in them. Rivets work loose. You do not weld frames, the stress loading and twisting will crack them in a instant.

My parents and i actually have a truck, i can name two welds on the entire frame assembly, Where we stretched it, and thats not a strength weld. The roughly 40 3/4inch grade 8 bolts are, as well as the double frame rails. The weld is only there to provide a smooth frame surface. The other is on a cross member that we had to cut to make fit in between the two main rails. Neither are load bearing welds, nor should they ever be.

As for air ride front, it is rare but it does happen, usually on fragile goods rigids here in Europe.

And yet it doesn't happen over here in the US? Why? Because there is no need. Our fragile goods are no different over here, and yet we have no need?

I can also give you a safety reason. You lose a front airbag, you lose the truck at speed, whereas with a broken leaf spring, you still potentially have a chance to recover.

have a look also at the Scania Longliner
I did, the cab is no bigger than a K100 Double Bunk Aerodyne (The equivalent of a roughly 84inch Studio Bunk on W900s in terms of back space)

As for the K100 you mentioned, the amount of space needed to work on that would be lol, like, really lol (No serious way i can think of to describe this), not to mention the sheer weight of the cab would make raising it a gamble with disaster.

Theres a reason that is first one, and likely only one, i have seen in my life or will ever see.
Ekraysia: I have to say, comparing your military equipment to that of the average NSer would be like comparing the T-34 to a hastily up-armoured elderly horse.
Too Lyras and Lamoni in the LY9/M22 Discussion thread

Sumer: But, as they say: When the pin is pulled, Mr.Grenade is not our friend.

USPA:Tenskwatawa is supposed to be crapped
USPA: wait
USPA: nvm
Lamoni: lol
Lamoni: That's the first time that i've heard of a sub coming out of THAT crack!
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Falls
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Joined: 06 Jun 2007, 01:13

10 Aug 2012, 16:38 #14

The Scania longliner has a half meter cowling on the back of sleeper for reducing the airgap between the tractor and trailer for reducing drag...even with that cowling its still not as long as that monstrosity. So if you are going to just copy Scania truck, then just copy scania trucks.

Next you are constructing that massive extended sleeper cab out of Aluminum not thin sheet metal or fiberglass, in order to get the structural rigidity youll need for it to not crack apart in six months its going to need to weigh more than a steel track body --- but if you really insist you can assume (a very conservative and entirely unrealistic assumption) of an average of 5mm thick aluminum for the cab, and no matter where you put the hinge for the cab over access to the engine if you arent at /least/ a 250lb man it aint coming over.

Also we see that in that forum someone who likes trucks says that the driver did want to discuss the truck, and that yes he claims the cab tilts.

Thats a distinct difference from proof, also thats not a production K100, its a custom sleeper. If the driver is 6'8" 300lbs then maybe he can manage it. Basically if that custom monster sleeper is all metal Ill kiss your ass.

http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/t ... _k100e.jpg
Same website, another K100(and like most K100 extended sleepers) the cabover is separate from the cabover, thus you can be as big or as little, as imaginable. No company makes an entire line of trucks dedicated to giants.
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Ghost 2501
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Ghost 2501
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Joined: 24 Jul 2012, 09:45

10 Aug 2012, 16:41 #15

Actually i double checked, its the cross members that are riveted.

So that will be added to the edit of pt1 and pt2.

however even if i do bring in a poppet valve option, the power wont change cos thats based on what I have trawled up from Cat, cummins, volvo, detroit etc.

DAF's Cummins 12 litre gives 520bhp,
similar to what I put in the V8

as for the LCS TerraStar, tilting the cab would be with hydraulics, like a bottlejack, possibly even electric (even some tilt cabs here now have powered cabs). to reduce the bend on the cab, the tilt rams would probably be at the rear of the cab, (like a tipper). on a cab THAT big, it would most likely have floor hatches (like on a bus or coach), probably engine mounted furher aft than normal.

remember the XL-R is designed for those who spend WEEKS away from home, and being a CoE, you can get more internal space than a conventional of the same length.

Yes your ride may pitch a bit more, CoE's do, because you sat above the front axle. BUT if someone gave me the choice, Argosy COE or Coronado, (or even a Pete 379, i'd take the argosy!

as for copying scania, I just used the Scania as one of the markers to see where things lie. ALso looked at Freightliner Volvo and Paccar brands, turns out there wasnt much between them. and you dont need the entire cab to be 5mm thick, it will be down to how the floor and sides are pressed.

oh and of the 4 trucks, 4 are Argosy's, and the other is an Actros mercedes (who OWN freightliner)
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