Why does Dragon elicit such antagonism?

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Why does Dragon elicit such antagonism?

Joined: October 3rd, 2006, 4:12 pm

October 15th, 2011, 12:41 am #1

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
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Joined: March 6th, 2004, 12:02 pm

October 15th, 2011, 1:04 am #2

It was in response to comments such as:

"This is almost an insult from Dragon!"

"Freddy must have his head up his a**!"

There are plenty of kits I have no interest in building, such as the UM train kits, or 90% of ACE artillery kits. But I don't complain at UM when they do this, complaining is stupid.

This is one kit I was secretly hoping would be released in 1:72, I wasn't expecting it to really be released, and I'm very grateful that it was. Give me this over a Panzer IV any day.

Manufacturers release kits they think will sell. If you don't want that particular kit you don't have to buy it.

From Dragon we've had brand new tools of LVTs, Churchill, two Japanese tanks, excellent Panzer IV F/G kits, superb early Tigers and more.

I regularly criticise Dragon for their ridiculous delay in releasing the SU-85 and Sturmtiger with Zimmerit kits.

I've no interest in their Horch kits, or their SdKfz 221/222 packs and won't buy them. But I don't insult them over it. I also have no interest in figure kits even though many here do.

If you like them, buy them, if not, don't. Not everything that Dragon, or any other manufacturer, releases will be to your tastes. Just accept it. Comments like those made here only reflect badly on the poster.

In reality, Dragon aren't that interested in comments from online forums, they're interested in how well the kits sell - not just in the kit line but in the pre-built line.

Jolyon
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Joined: August 17th, 2006, 10:22 pm

October 15th, 2011, 1:52 am #3

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
It's nice to see Dragon release some really nice kits of some one offs/esoteric items. Personally I don't have a need for them but, I would like to see Dragon release more figures in the future.
Charlie
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 9:06 pm

October 15th, 2011, 2:17 am #4

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
Just like children, when you are spoilt for choice you just want more. I would like to believe that more than the possibiliy that people dont like Dragon because it is a Chinese company. They do seem to come in for some highly vitrolic attacks regardless of what they do.

Personally, i would love a range of quality Italian trucks in plastic but I know Im never going to see any because bugger all of us would buy them! But never say never, who would have thought 5 years ago that we would see a new Chi Ha, Ha Go, Horsch, Sdkfz 223 or Churchill kit.
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Joined: October 3rd, 2006, 4:12 pm

October 15th, 2011, 2:28 am #5

It was in response to comments such as:

"This is almost an insult from Dragon!"

"Freddy must have his head up his a**!"

There are plenty of kits I have no interest in building, such as the UM train kits, or 90% of ACE artillery kits. But I don't complain at UM when they do this, complaining is stupid.

This is one kit I was secretly hoping would be released in 1:72, I wasn't expecting it to really be released, and I'm very grateful that it was. Give me this over a Panzer IV any day.

Manufacturers release kits they think will sell. If you don't want that particular kit you don't have to buy it.

From Dragon we've had brand new tools of LVTs, Churchill, two Japanese tanks, excellent Panzer IV F/G kits, superb early Tigers and more.

I regularly criticise Dragon for their ridiculous delay in releasing the SU-85 and Sturmtiger with Zimmerit kits.

I've no interest in their Horch kits, or their SdKfz 221/222 packs and won't buy them. But I don't insult them over it. I also have no interest in figure kits even though many here do.

If you like them, buy them, if not, don't. Not everything that Dragon, or any other manufacturer, releases will be to your tastes. Just accept it. Comments like those made here only reflect badly on the poster.

In reality, Dragon aren't that interested in comments from online forums, they're interested in how well the kits sell - not just in the kit line but in the pre-built line.

Jolyon
However, those "observations" I quoted weren't aimed solely at Al for his uncalled-for comments, but rather at all of us on that thread who had the temerity to question the wisdom of Dragon's kit choice. When comments like that are broadcast over everyone who has an opposing viewpoint, it makes them feel unwelcome to express their opinions here.

Perhaps next time when one person is out of line, the rest of us can focus our disapproval of said behavior on just that person, instead of taking the shotgun approach and encompassing everyone who disagrees with the general consensus.

And also, my original question stands: why this reaction only to criticism of Dragon, and not other manufacturers? Although you may not criticize other manufacturers, others here certainly do (myself included), yet nobody rises to their rabid defense like we just witnessed with Dragon.
-D
Last edited by 172tankmodeler on October 15th, 2011, 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 8:42 pm

October 15th, 2011, 3:11 am #6

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
off a small piece of this question.

Dragon is pretty prolific across all scales and types, and has a lot of fans.
For example, what has Trumpy done for 1/72 armor in 6 months or year for that matter?
So, when a kit comes out it gets put under a microscope. When it's discovered Dragon
skipped on important details on the kit or the instructions, or the decals or the reference
material, etc. People say "not again!" or "why don't they learn!" Hence, some disapontment
is waiting in anticapation of something being wrong, then "BAM" a new kit comes out that
doesn't come near our imagination or idea, it gets panned right off the bat.

Kit makers like Trumpy or insert name here, don't get the attention because their release
schedual is so infreqent, it makes no sense to complain.

Hope this sounds reasonable.
----------Christopher B.
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Joined: April 11th, 2006, 10:43 pm

October 15th, 2011, 4:13 am #7

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
You quote me extensively on one post regarding one Dragon release. And while I appreciate the notoriety, I have issue with the intention.

To be fair Dragon is savaged in this forum more often than not. The same thing went on for years in 1/35 forums. It appears no one else in the modeling world is accorded the kind attentions of modelers with keyboards more than Dragon - no matter what the scale.

Rarely a week goes by without someone popping off about some percieved Dragon slight. I kept silent because I sort of expected it.

It speaks volumes that when a thread erupts where folks actually step to Dragon's defense, there is another thread created that also asks how Dragon's defenders can be so crass.

As to Al's remarks, he didn't point out a kit flaw, soft detail or even out of register decals. He vehemently attacked a company for announcing a kit he personally didn't like before the kit was even released. It was in no way a constructive outburst.

If, as you say, manufacturers draw subject matter from these discussions, ergo it stands to reason that negative posts such as Al's would lead those same manufacturers to grease the squeaky wheel and refrain from making kits Al doesn't like. Where does that leave the rest of us? Frankly, I'm appalled at that line of reasoning.

From the tone of your post I suppose that the idea of open discussion is to state your viewpoint - no matter the detriment - and not to expect rebuttal. Good luck with that.

You are entitled to your opinion. But that's it. Once it's out there for all to see, them you have the right to hear dissent. It's generally known as the free exchange of ideas. If you don't like echoes, don't whistle into the canyon.

As for calling someone out personally, it would seem the website requirement was crafted for just such situations. I don't mind attaching my name to my words and since Al posted, it's safe to assume he doesn't either.

I suppose my suggestion for informing Dragon you are unhappy with their choice of products is to vote with your wallet. No matter where Freddie's head may be in Al's universe, I feel sure he will hear those votes. I know I plan to vote with my wallet on this latest announcement.
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Joined: March 19th, 2007, 9:06 am

October 15th, 2011, 4:59 am #8

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
I saw nothing that I'd consider anything to do with Dragon specifically, you could have inserted any brand name into that thread.
However it is kind of stupid to complain about this kit when they've recently released or announced some really nice subjects of various national origins that are much wanted and fill some holes for the scale.

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Joined: May 1st, 2008, 11:18 pm

October 15th, 2011, 5:13 am #9

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
Dragon is one of the leaders in the market, their annual output and their extense range in 1/35 creates some really high expectations about them. One can only dream about the possibilities in our scale and its hard to understand why a company with such positive characteristics doesnt follow a more logical approach on their production program in 1/72. But I consider that this year in particular has been really good for those of us who built WWII vehicles, with a wide variety of subjects released, there seems to be a kit for everyone.

I think it's also an antipathetic company and that they should work on their public relations to improve their corporate image.

Finally, it's common to feel sympathy and compassion for the weak and to have the opposite feelings for the strong and powerful.
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Joined: March 27th, 2003, 11:02 pm

October 15th, 2011, 6:38 am #10

This is not meant to start a flame war, so please don't do so. I am just curious about why Dragon elicits such an aggressive defense from people.

Take a close look at the thread below. One person, I repeat: ONE PERSON, posted a rude, insulting comment regarding Dragon. Two or three others expressed their disappointment with Dragon's choice of new release. And this is what we got in response:

"Some people have too much to complain about!"

"I feel really sorry for those of you who whine for the sake of whining."

"not having the grand insight to model the kits you deem desirable?"

"seems like people have no other problems these days since they can keep crying about almost every new release thats out there."

"i wonder what all the fuss is about."

"Have we become such an unhappy lot ?"

"I don't want to hear all the whinning about wishing you had got one when they were available"

Seriously, what is it about Dragon that makes it a sin to question them? If you've been a member of this forum for longer than a week, you'll know that we comment on and complain about a great many models and manufacturers. Why don't people rise to a passionate defense of Mirage, Italeri, Revell, ICM, MW, ACE, or any other company when their products are panned?

A number of manufacturers read this forum, and several even use it for interacting with their customer base. Such discussions about wants and desires provide valuable feedback for them. I am not defending Al's language in criticizing Dragon, but I will defend his right to do so. Why is Dragon off-limits when other manufacturers are fair game?

-Doug

PS. Thank you to everyone below who posted reasonable comments, both pro and con, without resorting to criticizing their fellow modelers.
Doug,

I never wanted to defend Dragon.
I like (some of) their kits, but dislike their company ethos.

That said, I fail to see the point complaining that a company has released a new kit. How does that harm the hobby ? Would it have been better if they did not release it ?
We would just have one kit less to choose from, and somewhere one modeler would still be waiting for a good kit of that vehicle.

We complained when Dragon released their last Sherman kit, their last SdKfz251 variation, etc. All very common vehicles. We complained because we wanted something that was not a modification of an existng kit. Now we get something totally new and we complain again.
(By the way, Dragon apparently stopped releasing variations of the SdKfz251 and Sherman, perhaps because we made it clear that we didn't want them. Does that make us happy then ? Apparently not, because I see posts asking for that Jumbo.)

What I dislike as well, is the tone of some of the posts. Asses don't have anything to do with the Neubaufahrzeug. (I checked its short operational history, they don't, trust me on that one.)

Ask yourself this: did we complain when
- Air Czech released a kit of the Skoda PA-III
- MGM released the Isuzu-Yoki 2.5t Model 2
- Model Miniature did the Unimog UR-416 (PLO)
?

And if we didn't complain, was it because these three kits have been the ones we've clamoring for ?


Perhaps it might seem I am defending Dragon again. In which case tell me, and I will refrain from giving my personal opinion the next time around. It will save me time that I can spend on building kits.

Cheers
Rob




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