Whittmann's Tigers at Villers Bocage ?? 2 part Question

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Whittmann's Tigers at Villers Bocage ?? 2 part Question

Joined: January 4th, 2009, 10:27 pm

March 5th, 2012, 8:24 am #1

Hey Everybody ,

I've looked through th archives on this .... Whew .... what a convoluted mess.

Questions :

1) He was in 231 before th battle of V-B , it broke down ( seen towed by 222 after th battle) , He returned to th depot & hoped in 212 ( believed, not verified) it was K.O.'d with a shot to th Right Sprocket ?, did He then return to Villers in a 3rd. Tiger ? If so what was th #

2) He was in a STUG III B (Buzzard) for th Operation of Barbarossa , When He was sent to Greece did He have that same STUG III B or was He in another ?

Thanx in Advance !!

ERIK





WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
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Joined: August 8th, 2010, 8:05 pm

March 5th, 2012, 1:11 pm #2

I dived into this question for a friend making this tiger. There is a very clear passage in it that states he took Kirt Sowas red 222.

Stephen J. Pringle
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Joined: January 4th, 2009, 10:27 pm

March 5th, 2012, 2:52 pm #3

STEPHEN ,

While that book may say that He was in Sowa's 222 , There is a very clear picture of #222 towing Tiger 231 after the battle of V-B. So that it can not be Tiger 222. Here are some discussions from M.L. on this particular debate

-http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/th ... ers-bocage

I tend to believe that 222 was not Wittmann's mount for th Battle.


ERIK



WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
Last edited by panzervor on March 6th, 2012, 4:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 12th, 2004, 7:09 pm

March 5th, 2012, 7:07 pm #4

Hey Everybody ,

I've looked through th archives on this .... Whew .... what a convoluted mess.

Questions :

1) He was in 231 before th battle of V-B , it broke down ( seen towed by 222 after th battle) , He returned to th depot & hoped in 212 ( believed, not verified) it was K.O.'d with a shot to th Right Sprocket ?, did He then return to Villers in a 3rd. Tiger ? If so what was th #

2) He was in a STUG III B (Buzzard) for th Operation of Barbarossa , When He was sent to Greece did He have that same STUG III B or was He in another ?

Thanx in Advance !!

ERIK





WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
1) He was in 231 before the battle of V-B

No info on what Tiger he was in at first, fact.


He returned to the depot & hopped in 212 ( believed, not verified) it was K.O.'d with a shot to the Right Sprocket ?,

He used the next available Tiger (which Agte says was the Tiger of Sowa)
the assumtion is being made that Sowa was in 222.
It appears that the 2nd kp. Tiger seen knocked out in Villers is '212', informed opinion.




did He then return to Villers in a 3rd. Tiger ? If so what was the #

Wittmann took no further part in the engagement after he was hit during his lone attack into Villers, fact.

The claimed 'confusion' (and I must admit I can't see any) all stems from the misreading of a single sentence in Agte which simply says Wittmann used Sowa's Tiger. Some readers them make the leap of assuming Sowa was in '222'.
It really is that simple.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on March 5th, 2012, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 17th, 2007, 6:47 pm

March 5th, 2012, 7:45 pm #5

Hey Everybody ,

I've looked through th archives on this .... Whew .... what a convoluted mess.

Questions :

1) He was in 231 before th battle of V-B , it broke down ( seen towed by 222 after th battle) , He returned to th depot & hoped in 212 ( believed, not verified) it was K.O.'d with a shot to th Right Sprocket ?, did He then return to Villers in a 3rd. Tiger ? If so what was th #

2) He was in a STUG III B (Buzzard) for th Operation of Barbarossa , When He was sent to Greece did He have that same STUG III B or was He in another ?

Thanx in Advance !!

ERIK





WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
the lens book is a good reference too.-
the panzer ace 01 book say that the tiger was recovered.-
i see some wrong information in the tiger in combat, tiger commanders , v.bocage about heimedal, etc.
after collect the info i think :
205 before ( couple of picture on road )
231 in V.Bocage ( a couple of pictures recovered )and 231 weeks days after ( film )
007 death.-
sdl
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Joined: January 4th, 2009, 10:27 pm

March 5th, 2012, 11:02 pm #6

1) He was in 231 before the battle of V-B

No info on what Tiger he was in at first, fact.


He returned to the depot & hopped in 212 ( believed, not verified) it was K.O.'d with a shot to the Right Sprocket ?,

He used the next available Tiger (which Agte says was the Tiger of Sowa)
the assumtion is being made that Sowa was in 222.
It appears that the 2nd kp. Tiger seen knocked out in Villers is '212', informed opinion.




did He then return to Villers in a 3rd. Tiger ? If so what was the #

Wittmann took no further part in the engagement after he was hit during his lone attack into Villers, fact.

The claimed 'confusion' (and I must admit I can't see any) all stems from the misreading of a single sentence in Agte which simply says Wittmann used Sowa's Tiger. Some readers them make the leap of assuming Sowa was in '222'.
It really is that simple.
MIKE,

Thanx for answering . I thought , from reading you remarks on th previous post, that it was indeed believed to be 212. Thank you very much for taking th time to answer this repeated question !!


Now .... on to th 2nd half of this Question ......

WITTMANN was in LSSAH's STUGG arm .... It's seen that during Barbarossa that His STUG III B (Buzzard) was in action ... but before that , when dispatched to Greece .... Was He in th Same STUG ?

Thanx in advance !


ERIK



WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
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Joined: August 8th, 2010, 8:05 pm

March 6th, 2012, 12:08 am #7

1) He was in 231 before the battle of V-B

No info on what Tiger he was in at first, fact.


He returned to the depot & hopped in 212 ( believed, not verified) it was K.O.'d with a shot to the Right Sprocket ?,

He used the next available Tiger (which Agte says was the Tiger of Sowa)
the assumtion is being made that Sowa was in 222.
It appears that the 2nd kp. Tiger seen knocked out in Villers is '212', informed opinion.




did He then return to Villers in a 3rd. Tiger ? If so what was the #

Wittmann took no further part in the engagement after he was hit during his lone attack into Villers, fact.

The claimed 'confusion' (and I must admit I can't see any) all stems from the misreading of a single sentence in Agte which simply says Wittmann used Sowa's Tiger. Some readers them make the leap of assuming Sowa was in '222'.
It really is that simple.
In Atges opus their is a graphic showing the known commanders of ss101. Sowas name appears with number 222.
@eric spell my name correctly please. I'll show you the same repect and spell yours correctly.

Stephen J. Pringle
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Joined: March 12th, 2004, 7:09 pm

March 6th, 2012, 2:10 am #8

The sentence in Agte which is the root of this interminable 'debate' is quite specific. Wittmann used Sowa's Tiger. Nothing more.
The assumption is then made (on the basis of other unrelated information in the book)that Sowa was in '222' on 13/6/44 but nowhere is this specificaly stated. Wittmann(on the same reasoning that puts Sowa in 222) should have been in '205' but he was not. We can not say if Agte (using the work of Wendt)is 100% correct and it would not be the only arror of fact in the book.
One thing is certain. The Tiger numbered '222' seen after Villers has no damage at all and can not possibly be the tank used by Wittmann. Quite simply it is impossible for it to be '222'.

Last edited by Michael Kenny on March 6th, 2012, 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 4th, 2009, 10:27 pm

March 6th, 2012, 4:31 am #9

In Atges opus their is a graphic showing the known commanders of ss101. Sowas name appears with number 222.
@eric spell my name correctly please. I'll show you the same repect and spell yours correctly.

Stephen J. Pringle
STEPHEN ,

Sorry about th missed letter ... Please don't take offense to it , or that it was done purposefully . No disrespect meant !

ERIK



WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
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Joined: April 16th, 2003, 11:56 am

March 6th, 2012, 5:10 am #10

MIKE,

Thanx for answering . I thought , from reading you remarks on th previous post, that it was indeed believed to be 212. Thank you very much for taking th time to answer this repeated question !!


Now .... on to th 2nd half of this Question ......

WITTMANN was in LSSAH's STUGG arm .... It's seen that during Barbarossa that His STUG III B (Buzzard) was in action ... but before that , when dispatched to Greece .... Was He in th Same STUG ?

Thanx in advance !


ERIK



WHAT DO YOU CALL THE ASSASSINS THAT ACCUSE THE ASSASSIN???
Hi Erik,

Wittmann was in a Stug in the Balkans in 1941, but it was a Stug III Ausf A, of which there are quite a few photos. The photos show the evenly spaced three return rollers, which is an indicator of the Ausführung.

Cheers
Steve


Interested in and researching the vehicles and weapons of the Leibstandarte
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