Units using 251/22 ?

.

The Axis WWII discussion group is hosted by Tom Cockle and is dedicated to Axis armour of the Second World War.

Units using 251/22 ?

Joined: March 2nd, 2007, 3:50 pm

February 25th, 2008, 4:26 pm #1

I'd really appreciate if anyone have any info about which units used the 251/22 Pakwagen.

I'm currently working on a small vignette including this cool vehicle and wants at least some historical accuracy in it.

Units (big or small), markings, you name it.

Thanks in advance.

/ M Larsson
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: December 7th, 2003, 8:11 pm

February 25th, 2008, 4:32 pm #2

Try a forum search,

this topic had been discussed before, and the answer is in the archives...

best regards,




Marc Brandes
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 2nd, 2005, 11:11 pm

February 25th, 2008, 7:40 pm #3

I'd really appreciate if anyone have any info about which units used the 251/22 Pakwagen.

I'm currently working on a small vignette including this cool vehicle and wants at least some historical accuracy in it.

Units (big or small), markings, you name it.

Thanks in advance.

/ M Larsson
Probably not a complete list, but these units got sd.kfz.251/22's:
17. Pz. Div.
Pz. Div. Schlesien
Pz. Div. Jueterbog
Pz.-Lehr-Div.
11. Pz. Div.


Best Regards,

Bryson
bryson_109NOSPAM@yahoo.com / Remove NOSPAM
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: November 22nd, 2005, 7:07 pm

February 25th, 2008, 7:41 pm #4

Try a forum search,

this topic had been discussed before, and the answer is in the archives...

best regards,




Marc Brandes
To save the forum search I keep these in "My favourites". Alan

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/me ... he+subject
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 2nd, 2007, 3:50 pm

February 25th, 2008, 8:10 pm #5

Tried the Forum-search but it was like trying to find a needle......

Got alot of hits on all sort of 251's but not much on the 251/22's (no matter how I wrote).

I'll save that link to.

Cheers / M Larsson, Sweden
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 2nd, 2007, 3:50 pm

February 25th, 2008, 8:15 pm #6

Probably not a complete list, but these units got sd.kfz.251/22's:
17. Pz. Div.
Pz. Div. Schlesien
Pz. Div. Jueterbog
Pz.-Lehr-Div.
11. Pz. Div.


Best Regards,

Bryson
bryson_109NOSPAM@yahoo.com / Remove NOSPAM
Thanks for your unitlist, though (as you wrote) it's probably not complete.

Just need something to lean on.

Cheers / M Larsson, Sweden
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 19th, 2004, 10:31 am

February 25th, 2008, 8:21 pm #7

I'd really appreciate if anyone have any info about which units used the 251/22 Pakwagen.

I'm currently working on a small vignette including this cool vehicle and wants at least some historical accuracy in it.

Units (big or small), markings, you name it.

Thanks in advance.

/ M Larsson
Here's a more or less complete and up-to-date overview of Heer and Waffen-SS units using Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 based on evaluation of allocation records and divisional status reports.
Conversion sets for Sd.Kfz. 251/9 were shipped to units beginning in December 1944. Trouble is that apparently some units did not visibly enter those conversions into their 'Kriegsgliederungen' so that they continue to show up with the weapon symbol for the Sd.Kfz. 251/9. With a little luck one finds evidence about that in other documents.
Another problem is that few units filed their monthly status report with 'Kriegsgliederung' due 1.4.1945 or even later. Documentation is sparse for the final months. Here a few more genuine Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and 251/9 conversions might have shown up.
So I can't and won't claim 100% completeness and accuracy for the following list:

1. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
2. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
3. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
4. Pz.Div. (conflicting evidence, use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 possible since early February 1945)
5. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
6. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
7. Pz.Div. (Either Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since January 1945)
8. Pz.Div. (possible use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since about March 1945)
9. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945)
11. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945, later Sd.Kfz. 251/9 conversions also possible)
12. Pz.Div. (converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since January 1945)
13. Pz.Div./Pz.Div. FHH 2 (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
14. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
16. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since incorporation of Pz.Div. Jüterbog in March 1945)
17. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
19. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
20. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
21. Pz.Div. (use of converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since March 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
23. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
24. Pz.Div. (use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 since January 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
25. Pz.Div. (use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 possible since January 1945, confirmed since March 1945)
26. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
116. Pz.Div. (use of converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since February/March 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
Pz.Lehr-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since March 1945)
Fsch.Pz.Div. HG (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. FHH (1) (ex Pz.Gren.Div. FHH) (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. Jüterborg (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 received but division incorporated into 16. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Div. Schlesien (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use February/March 1945, then incorporated into 18. Pz.Gren.Div.)
Pz.Div. Müncheberg (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. Clausewitz (no concrete evidence found for use in April 1945 just a very vague possibility)

Führer-Begleit-Brig./Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945)
Führer-Grenadier-Brig./Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

3. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
10. Pz.Gren-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
15. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
18. Pz.Gren.Div. ((Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since incorporation of Pz.Div. Schlesien at the end of March 1945)
20. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
25. Pz.Gren-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since early January 1945)
29. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
90. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)Pz.Gren-Div. Grossdeutschland (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since late December 1944)
Pz.Gren-Div. Feldherrnhalle (see Pz.Div. Feldherrnhalle)
Pz.Gren-Div. Brandenburg (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Gren-Div. Kurmark (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

1. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
2. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
3. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
5. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
9. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
10. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
11. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
12. SS-Pz.Div. (Either Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since February 1945)
16. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
18. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

On average some 4 - 8 such vehicles in use per division, some had more some had less.

First division to actually report Sd.Kfz. 251/22 on hand was Pz.Gren.Div. GD on 30.12.1944.
Best equipped division was 19. Pz.Div. with 11 in 4./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 74, 4 in 4./Pz.A.A. 19 and 4 in 3./Pz.Pi.Btl. 19!

As far as I can tell no Sd.Kfz. 251/22 were issued to any independent 'Heerestruppen' units.

Martin Block
February 2008
Last edited by Wuensdorf on February 25th, 2008, 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 12th, 2006, 5:43 pm

February 25th, 2008, 8:35 pm #8

Hi Martin,

Close to the end of your listing you mention the 19th Pz Div in more detail, so what exactly was the criteria used for the allocation of these vehicles, were they replacing the 251 that towed a Pak 40 ? it looks that way, them being in the 4th (s)Kp of a Pz Grenadier Rgt, the 4th (s)Kp of a Type 44 Pz Aufkl Abt, but in a Pz Pioneer Abt, that is more confusing I believe.

So is that the issue criteria, they are direct replacements of the 251 towed pak 40 ?

cheers leonard paul
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 19th, 2004, 10:31 am

February 25th, 2008, 8:53 pm #9

In most cases they were replacing the Sd.Kfz. 251/9 'Kanonenzüge' in the heavy weapons companies of the armored battalion of the Pz.Gren.Rgt. and/or the Pz.Aufkl.Abt.. In few cases (like 17. Pz.Div.) they replaced the towed Pak company in the Pz.Jg.Abt.. And in one and only case, i.e. 19. Pz.Div., they were used to form a mobile anti-tank platoon in the Pz.Pi.Btl.. That may seem odd but it is not taken from any post war books or my wildest dreams but cleary shown in the actual 'Kriegsgliederung' documents filed by the 19. Pz.Div. on 1.3. and 1.4.1945 and kept in the BA-MA Freiburg.

Martin Block
Last edited by Wuensdorf on February 25th, 2008, 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 2nd, 2007, 3:50 pm

February 25th, 2008, 9:54 pm #10

Here's a more or less complete and up-to-date overview of Heer and Waffen-SS units using Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 based on evaluation of allocation records and divisional status reports.
Conversion sets for Sd.Kfz. 251/9 were shipped to units beginning in December 1944. Trouble is that apparently some units did not visibly enter those conversions into their 'Kriegsgliederungen' so that they continue to show up with the weapon symbol for the Sd.Kfz. 251/9. With a little luck one finds evidence about that in other documents.
Another problem is that few units filed their monthly status report with 'Kriegsgliederung' due 1.4.1945 or even later. Documentation is sparse for the final months. Here a few more genuine Sd.Kfz. 251/22 and 251/9 conversions might have shown up.
So I can't and won't claim 100% completeness and accuracy for the following list:

1. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
2. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
3. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
4. Pz.Div. (conflicting evidence, use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 possible since early February 1945)
5. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
6. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
7. Pz.Div. (Either Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since January 1945)
8. Pz.Div. (possible use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since about March 1945)
9. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945)
11. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945, later Sd.Kfz. 251/9 conversions also possible)
12. Pz.Div. (converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since January 1945)
13. Pz.Div./Pz.Div. FHH 2 (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
14. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
16. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since incorporation of Pz.Div. Jüterbog in March 1945)
17. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
19. Pz.Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
20. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
21. Pz.Div. (use of converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since March 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
23. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
24. Pz.Div. (use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 since January 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
25. Pz.Div. (use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 possible since January 1945, confirmed since March 1945)
26. Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
116. Pz.Div. (use of converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 since February/March 1945 possible, not 100% confirmed)
Pz.Lehr-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since March 1945)
Fsch.Pz.Div. HG (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. FHH (1) (ex Pz.Gren.Div. FHH) (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. Jüterborg (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 received but division incorporated into 16. Pz.Div.)
Pz.Div. Schlesien (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use February/March 1945, then incorporated into 18. Pz.Gren.Div.)
Pz.Div. Müncheberg (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Div. Clausewitz (no concrete evidence found for use in April 1945 just a very vague possibility)

Führer-Begleit-Brig./Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since January 1945)
Führer-Grenadier-Brig./Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

3. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
10. Pz.Gren-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since February 1945)
15. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
18. Pz.Gren.Div. ((Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since incorporation of Pz.Div. Schlesien at the end of March 1945)
20. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
25. Pz.Gren-Div. (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since early January 1945)
29. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
90. Pz.Gren-Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)Pz.Gren-Div. Grossdeutschland (Sd.Kfz. 251/22 in use since late December 1944)
Pz.Gren-Div. Feldherrnhalle (see Pz.Div. Feldherrnhalle)
Pz.Gren-Div. Brandenburg (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
Pz.Gren-Div. Kurmark (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

1. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
2. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
3. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
4. SS-Pol.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
5. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
9. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
10. SS-Pz.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
11. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
12. SS-Pz.Div. (Either Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 in use since February 1945)
16. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
17. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)
18. SS-Freiw.Pz.Gren.Div. (no evidence for use of Sd.Kfz. 251/22 or converted Sd.Kfz. 251/9 found)

On average some 4 - 8 such vehicles in use per division, some had more some had less.

First division to actually report Sd.Kfz. 251/22 on hand was Pz.Gren.Div. GD on 30.12.1944.
Best equipped division was 19. Pz.Div. with 11 in 4./Pz.Gren.Rgt. 74, 4 in 4./Pz.A.A. 19 and 4 in 3./Pz.Pi.Btl. 19!

As far as I can tell no Sd.Kfz. 251/22 were issued to any independent 'Heerestruppen' units.

Martin Block
February 2008
I'm very greatfull for your comprehensive answer and for taking the time to write it down. Impressive.

Much appreciated.

Cheers / M Larsson, Sweden
Quote
Like
Share