Question on type B Cromwells....

.

Hosted by John Prigent and Steve Zaloga, this is a discussion group dedicated to the armoured forces of the many Allied nations of the Second World War.

Question on type B Cromwells....

Joined: February 13th, 2007, 5:49 am

August 26th, 2011, 6:41 am #1

I have been doing some searching for images(or walk arounds) on the Type B hulled Cromwells as I have come across a welded example at Point 213 near Villers Bocage. The oddest thing is that this one sure does look to be one that did NOT get the all around vision cupola either. My question is this- is there a good 1/35 scale plan that I can use to convert the Accurate Armor kit to that hull type as it looks simple enough to do- IF you have the hatch dimensions!
The only references I have on the Cromwell are;

The HMSO book
Villers Bocage through the lens
and the spiral bound book put out by ABM but it is of the D type and not much help.
Any help would be appreciated by those in the know- like Dick Taylor or the rest of the Brit pack!
Thanks guys,
Chris the cabbie
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2005, 8:55 am

August 26th, 2011, 7:49 am #2

Hi,
What do you mean by "came across a welded example at Point 213"?

If it's a photo of a Cromwell in VB through the lens, I don't think that's a B hull Cromwell but a Mark Vw, a welded Cromwell with applique armour. These had D hulls with the Vauxhall driver's hatch.

Erik L
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 13th, 2007, 5:49 am

August 26th, 2011, 5:02 pm #3

as the Vauxhall hatch variant is not terribly common and it looks like there is only one possible in the ATB VB book that I can see. The B type hull is with the small drivers hatch that runs right up to the front glacius weld seem on the roof. It happens to have a rebate on the rear inside corner and I am POSITIVE that I am right on this as the hatch IS open on this one! Check the pics in your copy of ATB VB as its the Vw with the two oil cans on the front glacius and has no discernible 88mm penetration to be seen. Daniel Taylor(the author of ATB VB through the lens book) just did an article for Airfix Modelworld on the hull types of the Cromwell at VB and had sketches of the hull differences. It's pretty plain to see IF you really look at them. With the exception of the belly escape hatch that got deleted by the D type, it was down to hatch arrangement for the front of the hull. And I can still see no cupola for the turret of this Cromwell and it is not on the ground anywhere near the tank so, it looks like an anachronism hmm?
Regards,
Chris the cabbie
Last edited by CJUST on August 26th, 2011, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2005, 8:55 am

August 26th, 2011, 7:39 pm #4

Hi,
Is it this one?
http://www.v-like-vintage.net/en/photo_ ... ptions=255

(I hope that works.)

I'd say that's a Mark Vw with a Vauxhall hatch, note WD number T121744W (welded hull and in the block assigned to welded up-armoured Cromwells manufactured by BRC&W, T121xxxW) and the opened hatch. If I interpret your description of the driver's hatch correctly, you are describing the Vauxhall hatch. The other driver's hatches placed on the hull top did not go all the way to the front, up to the vertical glacis plate. I've only seen the Vauxhall hatch on Mark Vw's and these had D hulls.

I don't have the VB book, nor that magazine.

Erik L
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: February 13th, 2007, 5:49 am

August 27th, 2011, 5:40 am #5

I went to Accurate Armor' site and came across their Vauxall conversion and see what you mean! It seems that the article by Danial Taylor got me going in circles as the B type he alludes to is the Vauxall hatch version. Taylor goes over the different types and spells out the differences in a flow chart but I am unsure what to believe as solid Cromwell info outside of the UK is a bitch to track down with any certainty. I was hoping that when I did a Google image search, I might come across a walk around of a Vauxall version that might help in converting the AA kit to this hatch variant(it's an F type hull with both side opening hatches), no joy. The plans are simple schematics and are basic but I was hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction for solid info?? You were right the first time Erik and the link you posted IS the vehicle in question to be sure.
Any suggestions on where I might find that missing bit o info?
Regards,
Chris the cabbie
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2005, 8:55 am

August 28th, 2011, 8:56 am #6

If I remember correctly, the AA Cromwell is a late model with 15,5" tracks and Type F hull. I think the easiest way is to build it as a regular mkIVF with 14" tracks or a mkIVF with 15,5" tracks in Korea (although that would technically be a MkVII). Try to find as many photos as possible. Bison Decals have a couple of good decal sets too.
In WW2, in NW Europe, I've only seen applique armour on MkVw in photos. So far no wide, ie 15,5", tracks either, only 14" tracks.

Converting a Tamiya MkIV Type C into a MkVw Type D is much easier.

Cromwell references aren't thick on the ground. Osprey have a New Vanguard book, it's good. It covers the post-war period and Charioteer as well. HMSO has a book too, but I've never been able to get it. Apart from those, there are quite a lot of books with photos of Cromwells and the history of it as part of British armour in general. Good photo books include Concord's books on British armour and Cromwell & Centaur by Ian Carter.

I'm going to try to find that magazine, seems like an interesting article.

Erik L
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 12th, 2005, 8:55 am

August 28th, 2011, 11:24 am #7

I'm not aware of any walkarounds of Vauxhall hatch-equipped Cromwells, but the A30 Challenger used the same driver's hatch. There is an A30 at the Overloon museum in the Netherlands so photos of that vehicle might help.

Erik L
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 18th, 2009, 5:52 pm

August 28th, 2011, 11:55 am #8

I have been doing some searching for images(or walk arounds) on the Type B hulled Cromwells as I have come across a welded example at Point 213 near Villers Bocage. The oddest thing is that this one sure does look to be one that did NOT get the all around vision cupola either. My question is this- is there a good 1/35 scale plan that I can use to convert the Accurate Armor kit to that hull type as it looks simple enough to do- IF you have the hatch dimensions!
The only references I have on the Cromwell are;

The HMSO book
Villers Bocage through the lens
and the spiral bound book put out by ABM but it is of the D type and not much help.
Any help would be appreciated by those in the know- like Dick Taylor or the rest of the Brit pack!
Thanks guys,
Chris the cabbie
Hi chris
Ihave some close up photos of the vauxhall hatch i will try and post this weekend as i have to find them first
chris dunmill
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 18th, 2009, 5:52 pm

August 28th, 2011, 3:07 pm #9

I have been doing some searching for images(or walk arounds) on the Type B hulled Cromwells as I have come across a welded example at Point 213 near Villers Bocage. The oddest thing is that this one sure does look to be one that did NOT get the all around vision cupola either. My question is this- is there a good 1/35 scale plan that I can use to convert the Accurate Armor kit to that hull type as it looks simple enough to do- IF you have the hatch dimensions!
The only references I have on the Cromwell are;

The HMSO book
Villers Bocage through the lens
and the spiral bound book put out by ABM but it is of the D type and not much help.
Any help would be appreciated by those in the know- like Dick Taylor or the rest of the Brit pack!
Thanks guys,
Chris the cabbie
Hi chris
found the photos hope they help. chris
Last edited by dunmill on August 30th, 2011, 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 18th, 2009, 5:52 pm

August 28th, 2011, 3:09 pm #10

I have been doing some searching for images(or walk arounds) on the Type B hulled Cromwells as I have come across a welded example at Point 213 near Villers Bocage. The oddest thing is that this one sure does look to be one that did NOT get the all around vision cupola either. My question is this- is there a good 1/35 scale plan that I can use to convert the Accurate Armor kit to that hull type as it looks simple enough to do- IF you have the hatch dimensions!
The only references I have on the Cromwell are;

The HMSO book
Villers Bocage through the lens
and the spiral bound book put out by ABM but it is of the D type and not much help.
Any help would be appreciated by those in the know- like Dick Taylor or the rest of the Brit pack!
Thanks guys,
Chris the cabbie
















Last edited by dunmill on August 30th, 2011, 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share