Please help with pigments and turpendoid

Hosted by Dave Parker from AFV Modeller magazine and Adam Wilder, this discussion group is geared towards modelling technique questions ranging from construction to final weathering. This forum was created so that "newbies" can post without being intimidated by the sometimes highly technical nature of the other discussion groups.

Please help with pigments and turpendoid

Joined: June 3rd, 2005, 6:25 am

October 29th, 2006, 9:19 pm #1

Hi guys,

I've done a few tanks using Mig pigments and have mixed feelings with the results I came up with. Today I started a new project and am using Mig pigments (European dust and dry dirt) along with Turpenoid. I need some help badly.

1. Should I apply the Mig pigments to the tank first and then the turpenoid, or the turpenoid first and then pigments?

2. If I apply the pigments first, do I rub the pigments in with a dry brush before adding the turpenoid or do I just sort of pile it on and then rub it in with the wet turpendoid brush?

3. How much pigments should I use? I used just a little and didn't see much so added more and am not waiting for it to dry to see the results. I'm looking for a dirty/dusty look (not mud).

4. Anything else I need to know while doing this? I'm currently working on it now so will probably have more questions soon.

I've read the tutorial on this site on how to use pigments but am looking for more detailed and specific info.
Last edited by tshintl on October 29th, 2006, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 3rd, 2005, 6:25 am

October 29th, 2006, 9:45 pm #2

My turpenoid has now dried and it's apparent I over did the amount of pigment I added. I kept adding just a bit more pigment as I was brushing on the turpenoid because I couldn't see it so thought there wasn't enough, lesson 1 learned. Still need advice on this technique as it seems to be going not that well from the start.
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Joined: August 12th, 2004, 3:14 pm

October 30th, 2006, 2:05 pm #3

You can mix a little pigment with a lot of Turpenoid, for a very light wash. You can also mix a lot of pigment in with less thinner to make a thicker, more solid coating. I use that method a lot, and then while it is still wet on the model, will go back with more thinner to soften things out here and there. When it is all dry, you can use a stiff paint brush or even your fingers to remove or blend in the pigments if you have any areas you don't like.

You can also apply dry pigments to the model, then lightly dab on some thinner to set it.

I've also had good luck mixing some pigments with clear flat varnish (testors) and airbrushing it on.

Here are some Hobby Boss Sherman photos done with thick pigment washes that were later rubbed down a bit. I still need to add a bit of dry pigments for surface dust.



DAVID NICKELS
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Joined: March 14th, 2005, 1:40 pm

October 30th, 2006, 7:58 pm #4

Hello Trevor
There are a number of ways for you to apply the pigments onto a model. It can take a bit of practice to find a method that works best for you. I normally apply the pigments in very light amounts with a dry-brush where I want the earth tones to be on the model then add the turpentine. Put the pigments on in small amounts gradually working your way up to a finish you are happy with. If you apply too much you can remove some with a dry-brush.

What type of turpentine are you using?

You can also brush the pigments on dry with a dry brush.

Can I ask you to post a few photos of your model so I can get a better idea of what we are dealing with?

Thank you
ANPW
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Joined: June 3rd, 2005, 6:25 am

October 31st, 2006, 1:00 am #5

Pictures below. I use Turpenoid in the blue container as suggested by many on this forum a few months back. The pigments are by Mig and is European Dust. As you can see, it's way over done. The picture of the front shows half with the pigment and half with out. Any suggestions?

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Joined: March 14th, 2005, 1:40 pm

October 31st, 2006, 7:10 pm #6

Hello Trevor
Thank you for the photos. This helps me a lot. You are using waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much pigments.

Pigments are like oils, acrylics and all other mediums used to paint and weather a model. You need to carefully research photos and apply them in refined amounts to the areas that you want to weather and appear dirty.

I do not know how you can save that tiger. I would recommend using the clean side to apply smaller amounts at a time and practice in anticipation for your next project. Again, please try to reference color photos of actual modern AFVs and experiment.

I am sorry that you are off to a discouraging start. Just be patient and keep trying.

Good Luck and post again if you continue to have problems.
ANPW

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Joined: August 12th, 2004, 3:14 pm

October 31st, 2006, 8:47 pm #7

More of the thinner you used for the wash, or a sprayed on layer of clear flat will greatly reduce the effect.
DAVID NICKELS
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Joined: September 21st, 2006, 7:21 pm

October 31st, 2006, 9:28 pm #8

Pictures below. I use Turpenoid in the blue container as suggested by many on this forum a few months back. The pigments are by Mig and is European Dust. As you can see, it's way over done. The picture of the front shows half with the pigment and half with out. Any suggestions?

<img></img>

<img></img>
I'm new to modeling too (well, I used to be into it 25 years ago) and so far I LOVE the pigments for weathering. The best part for me is that it is almost mistake-proof. When I put too much on, I can just take a stiff bristle brush and clear most of the pigment off. I use terpeniod to apply the pigments. I was worried myself when I put too much pigment on my M4's, but, they brushed down nicely for a subtle weathering effect.
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Joined: September 21st, 2006, 7:21 pm

October 31st, 2006, 9:31 pm #9

Uhhh, sorry, that was my post above.
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Joined: April 15th, 2003, 3:23 am

November 1st, 2006, 2:43 am #10

Pictures below. I use Turpenoid in the blue container as suggested by many on this forum a few months back. The pigments are by Mig and is European Dust. As you can see, it's way over done. The picture of the front shows half with the pigment and half with out. Any suggestions?

<img></img>

<img></img>
It looks like you have applied far too much pigment in your first attempt. I would try to clean off this first application by applying some clean turpenoid and scrubbing the pigment off using a reasonably stiff brush and an old rag (to soak up the junk). Never having used turpenoid myself I can't really say how much success you will have cleaning off the pigment.

The secret to applying pigments is to work slowly and gradually build up successive layers until you reach the desired effect. Don't ever try to get it all done in one session! Have patience and be prepared to spend many evenings slowly building up the weathering until you are happy with the result. It's a lot easier to add a little more weathering than to try to take away from a heavy handed application (as you are learning).

The beauty of working with pigments is that if you don't like the result, you can remove most of it and start again. Also, once pigments have been applied you can work with them a fair bit and move them around both while they are wet and while they are dry.

I like to use isopropyl alchohol as a medium for pigments. I find that the alchohol and pigment mix is easier to apply and even remove if you are not happy with the results. If you are applying such a mix on top of an acrylic base coat, be sure to first seal up your model with an enamel based flat varnish or else you will remove all of the paint!

To begin applying the pigment, mix a small amount with some alchohol until the mix looks like slighly tinted alchohol. Use a thicker slury if you are simulating a heavy mud instead of dust. Apply this mix with a soft brush and focus on the nooks and crannies with particular attention given to the suspension and running gear.

After applying a thin pigment wash, let it dry and then have a go at it with a wide soft brush (I like to use a soft fan brush) to blend away any tide marks and soften the overall effect. You can even use your finger to blend and unify the layers of pigment until a soft and natural look is achieved.

It is important to study your reference photos prior to attempting to apply pigments. You must observe how dust and dirt tend to collect on your subject vehicle. If your subject vehicle had a top speed of 10 Km/h then it probably won't have much dust and dirt anywhere but the suspension. However, if your subject was a speed demon, the level of weathering and dusting will be significantly different!

The study of photos of modern vehicles can be helpful because dust and dirt are the same now as they were 60 years ago! Pay attention to how real vehicles weather in different terrain conditions. A long fast move across dry dusty ground will produce a very different effect than a drive over the same ground in a heavy rain while a road move on asphalt will produce little if any weathering. Study pictures of vehicles in many different settings to understand the effect the land has on the vehicle. A big part of effective weathering is understanding how different terrain conditions will manifest in the weathering of a vehicle.

I hope this help.

Cheers - Dan
Last edited by danhay on November 1st, 2006, 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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