Of Stugs and Zim. Continued

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The Axis WWII discussion group is hosted by Tom Cockle and is dedicated to Axis armour of the Second World War.

Of Stugs and Zim. Continued

Joined: October 21st, 2008, 4:41 pm

April 20th, 2012, 8:03 pm #1

While I have a good internet connect-trying to get some info about Stug IIIs that sported "standard/shingle type" zimmerit. Who produced them? When? Timeframe? Features? How many?
Second, I thought only Miag applied zim to vehicles still fitted with the 30mm bolted on armor. But pg.48 of Panzerwrecks 7 has a photo of what appears to be waffle zim on a 50+30 Stug which also has the box/bolted mantlet? Any more of this arrangement seen around? Thanks, John S.
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Joined: November 18th, 2009, 10:04 am

April 21st, 2012, 3:35 pm #2

Hi John

I guess you've answered your own question there. Sources that I have access to indicate that although Alkett may have started with the 80mm interlocked front before MIAG, neither had fully implemented the change before November 43, hence the waffle example in PW7.

Cheers
Ron
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Joined: August 26th, 2005, 6:22 pm

April 21st, 2012, 8:35 pm #3

While I have a good internet connect-trying to get some info about Stug IIIs that sported "standard/shingle type" zimmerit. Who produced them? When? Timeframe? Features? How many?
Second, I thought only Miag applied zim to vehicles still fitted with the 30mm bolted on armor. But pg.48 of Panzerwrecks 7 has a photo of what appears to be waffle zim on a 50+30 Stug which also has the box/bolted mantlet? Any more of this arrangement seen around? Thanks, John S.
Hello John,
first i had to read the post twice to understand what you mean.
First Q : StuGs with standard / shingle zimmerit were always field modifications done at front repair shops, mostly during Spring of '44 at the Eastern Front. Factory-new vehicles with zimmerit always had either waffle or square patterns.
Second Q : I don't know the picture, but after your description the only unusual is the application of Zimmerit. According to Mueller/Zimmermann on p.32 Alkett started building the new 80mm base armour on the the lower bowplate from April '43 onwards. On the other hand the "bolted"/screwed mantlet was installed until October '43 but application of Zimmerit started in November. So i guess this vehicle is from the the transition period at the factory, when they already had installed the mantlet and then the order was issued to cover vehicles in Zimmerit, which was immidiately carried out.

Best wishes
Markus
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Joined: July 5th, 2005, 7:24 pm

April 22nd, 2012, 7:36 am #4

While I have a good internet connect-trying to get some info about Stug IIIs that sported "standard/shingle type" zimmerit. Who produced them? When? Timeframe? Features? How many?
Second, I thought only Miag applied zim to vehicles still fitted with the 30mm bolted on armor. But pg.48 of Panzerwrecks 7 has a photo of what appears to be waffle zim on a 50+30 Stug which also has the box/bolted mantlet? Any more of this arrangement seen around? Thanks, John S.
Hi John and all
Pic is e.g. at:
http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/showt ... 40&page=10

From style this is one of 57 rebuilt Pz3J/L at MIAG at may/june 1944.(source: Stug 3, backbone of Infantry, Historyfacts) They were all upgraded with bolted on armor
The only confusing point is that it should have MIAG style Zimmerit as seen on other Stugs.
About box mantlet: MIAG used them until the end.
Regards from Vienna
Robert

Visit our modelling show "Go Modelling" in Military Museum in Vienna at 10/11th march 2012
www.ipms.at
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Joined: November 18th, 2009, 10:04 am

April 22nd, 2012, 9:10 am #5

Robert

MIAG is hardly likely as a rebuilder as they would hardly have totally rezimmed this StuG in a combination of 'waffle' and 'generic' (sides of the mantlet guard) styles and not their own. MIAG never applied waffle zimmerit. This StuG is much more likely just a late Alkett example with 50+30mm base.

Neither is the III on p.30 of PW7 you refer to likely to have been a MIAG rebuild either (PW are carefully not specific in the text) - only MAN were documented to have rebuilt PzIII chassis into StuGs afaik, and this machine even has a pretty good rendition of what looks like MAN's early rollered Panther zimmerit style when they were still applying it it horizontally, so I think MAN much more likely candidate.

If you are making these assumptions based on the tubular fender supports than that is wrong too - at this early stage of the G's existence all 3 manufacturers were producing machines with the tube supports, at that point they were still a generic style. It was only later around Sep-Oct 43 when Alkett changed to pressed supports that MIAG altered the tube style into their 'own' signature style with triangular reinforcing fillets.

Ron
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Joined: July 5th, 2005, 7:24 pm

April 22nd, 2012, 3:45 pm #6

Hi Ron
I am always looking for all details I can find. main fact is the Pz3 hull.
Which sources are you using for history of rebuilt Pz3- Stugs and details about fender support which are wrong according to my sources.
I found in the excellent HF books:
Alkett used no Pz3 hulls for Stug 3G production.
MIAG was rebuilding:
#1 app. 127 Pz3M chassis from MAN (deep wading muffler, welded add on)3-11/1943
#2 app. 100 L/M chassis from their own Pz3 production, where all chassis SHOULD be without escape hatches. 4-12/1943
#3 app. 57 reworked Pz3J /L 3-5/1944.
gun is >4/1944, cupola armor could be add on complete
May be another possibility:
MIAG found in first in/last out production old hulls with escape hatches and build it under #2. later this Stug got Zim and new gun.
Regards from Vienna
Robert




Visit our modelling show "Go Modelling" in Military Museum in Vienna at 10/11th march 2012
www.ipms.at
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Joined: November 18th, 2009, 10:04 am

April 22nd, 2012, 5:07 pm #7

Hi Robert,

No PzIIIs were converted by MIAG. all Pz.III-to-StuG.IIIG conversions were converted by MAN in Nürnberg according to Jentz/Doyle (142 in 1942-3, an additional 170 in 1944), including the one on Panzerwrecks 7 (which has a nice rollered MAN copy of MAN's own early horizontal Panther zimmerit!). Most or all of these ended up with welded 50mm+30mm or bolted 50mm+30mm hull fronts depending on the chassis base.

So I say again that neither of these vehicles was from MIAG, and nothing in the photos confirms they were.

Ron
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Joined: October 21st, 2008, 4:41 pm

April 22nd, 2012, 7:16 pm #8

Hi John and all
Pic is e.g. at:
http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/showt ... 40&page=10

From style this is one of 57 rebuilt Pz3J/L at MIAG at may/june 1944.(source: Stug 3, backbone of Infantry, Historyfacts) They were all upgraded with bolted on armor
The only confusing point is that it should have MIAG style Zimmerit as seen on other Stugs.
About box mantlet: MIAG used them until the end.
Regards from Vienna
Robert

Visit our modelling show "Go Modelling" in Military Museum in Vienna at 10/11th march 2012
www.ipms.at
The vehicle you referenced is not the one I initially enquired about. That is likely the source of the disagreement btw. you and Ron.
Though Ron, I notice that the Stug I questioned about seems to have Pz III style folding front fenders? Appreciate all the input. John S.
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Joined: November 18th, 2009, 10:04 am

April 23rd, 2012, 1:06 pm #9

Hi John

Sorry of I inadvertently got Robert off on another track, yes I too am slightly confused by Pg48's PzIII mudguard front ends. Notice how the whole upper run of fender is 'flat' though not 'kinked' or 'stepped' as would surely be the case if built on an actual PzIII chassis. Also...... both these StuGs has the June 44 (earliest) co-axial MG in the mantlet. So my assumption (and it is only that) is that this is one of those like on pg 30 (the other StuG!), both refurbed at MAN in June-July 1944 using old-inventory PzIII parts (and hence the mixed zim types), but this one originating at Alkett hence the waffle original zim.

Hi Robert

Nothing personal as I know you're trying to help, but I have to say I and some others are somewhat mistrustful of Muller & Zimmermans' recent StuG G findings, some of their data just looks too good and complete (no room for doubt, unlike Jentz/Doyle at least) to be true, and as one of their co-researchers is a well-known 'inventor' I'm rather sceptical. Put it this way, once we see the upcoming M & Z Panther book, if it mentions Sperbers and Vampirs or has Trojca-esque drawings based on old DML/GunzeSangyo kits (as in the case of Gunpower 24 Jagdpanther) we'll have a better idea how reliable their data is.

M & Z make a big thing on their website about how they haven't copied Hilary Doyle' drawings, and then show a portion of one of their 1/35 StuGs next to a part of one of Doyle's in 1/72, which is hardly a fair comparison. Anyway, how much more accurate than Doyle's can they be really? This just feels like Tankpower all over again.

Cheers all
Ron
Last edited by ronrunningman on April 23rd, 2012, 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 5th, 2005, 7:24 pm

April 23rd, 2012, 7:25 pm #10

The vehicle you referenced is not the one I initially enquired about. That is likely the source of the disagreement btw. you and Ron.
Though Ron, I notice that the Stug I questioned about seems to have Pz III style folding front fenders? Appreciate all the input. John S.
Hi John
Sorry for confusing the Stugs
I should read more carefully
I think this Stug is a mix and match from maintanance units and shows not enough details to clarify each item. Do you know that even on Stug3B/C hull was at least one stug with 3G upper body?
gun is MIAG >5/44 with useless handmade Zimmerit.
upper hull is Alkett 11/43-6/44, for closer match you need roof
lower hull shows pz3 style fenders and it seems there are assembling points for spare track holders -> MIAG Pz3L or M hull with their brake hatches (pls trust me with MIAG)Zim look handmade -> hull
Regards from Vienna
Robert



Visit our modelling show "Go Modelling" in Military Museum in Vienna at 10/11th march 2012
www.ipms.at
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