Mystery name on 2.SS SdKfz 251/3 in Roncey Pocket

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Mystery name on 2.SS SdKfz 251/3 in Roncey Pocket

Joined: May 29th, 2002, 1:30 pm

May 29th, 2002, 1:30 pm #1

Hello fellow 251 buffs

Before I say anything, I must apologise to those that may need to scroll across to read this post- I had real trouble with one pic refusing to stay @#$%! small enough!

Here are some pics which follow on from a recent thread on the 2.SS Hummel "Clauswitz". In the pics posted earlier one could see beside it an abandoned Sdkfz 251 ausf D, also clearly marked with the yellow 2.SS logo and Artillery Regiment tac sign on its rear.

The shot below is another less familiar one, which appears on p.135 of Mark Bando's excellent 'Breakout at Normandy', published by MBI (USA), 1999. In this view a little more of the relatively rarely seen internally mounted star antenna installation can be seen sticking out on the left of the 251.



The proceeding shot is a blow up from an IWM photo revealing a little more of the antenna instalation (the triangular structure in the rear LH corner of the crew compartment). Even more interestingly is the evidence of a vehicle name in a similar Gothic-style script on the side of the 251/3.



This close up is scanned to a higher resolution. My question to you guys is what name could it be? Unfortunately there seems to have been some slight camera shudder when the image was taken, which makes an I.D. difficult. The eagle eyes amongst you must surely have some goood guesses (Mirko?)



My first suggestion was "Franke", who was a contemporary of Clauswitz in the Prussian army. The problem is, there looks like there might be seven letters in the vehicle's name. The first letter may be an "F" or a "G" (they look similar in Gothic- as do several other letters!). The last three letters look very much like "nke" to me...or maybe "oke"(?) Another guess was "Goethe", but I thought the Nazis banned all reference to him during WW II (maybe they changed their minds when they realised things weren't going to plan).

Anyway, here are some other refs of internal-mount star antenna 251/3. The following one is on p229 of Panzer Grenadiere...der Panzerdivision "Wiking" im Bild, published by Munin Verlag GMBH Osnabuck, 1984.



This final shot is very helpful as it affords a rare peek at the antenna base from within a 251/3 captured by the bloody gutsy Polish resistance, during the Warsaw uprising in August/Septmber 1944. The radio the Poles are removing is resting on the antenna base. This particular e.g. lacks the lip around the top edge of the triangular side plates. The vehicle was apparently nick-named "Jas" by the Poles.



The picture comes from yet another excellent title in the Wydawnictwo Militaria series, No. 148, Warszawa 1944, by Janusz Ledwoch, p.49.

I would encourage everyone to buy all the titles listed above if you come across them- they have much to offer picture-wise for German MV modelers.

Any help in identifying the name on the 2.SS 251/3 would be much appreciated. If anyone has any other pics of these internal-star antenna mount 251/3's, love to hear from you.

Actually Jimmy, I recall you have a scan of another Wiking 251/3, numbered "302" which I've seen...Its a LHS view with two officers manning the MG 42...

Cheers
Baz

PS Thanks James and Chris Leeman for coaching me thru image posting, the neue way!
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Joined: January 9th, 2002, 3:54 pm

May 29th, 2002, 2:18 pm #2

Hello!

Very interesting fotos!

Playing around with contrats and effects my guess would be GERLINDE

Christoph
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Joined: May 29th, 2002, 2:53 pm

May 29th, 2002, 2:53 pm #3

Hello fellow 251 buffs

Before I say anything, I must apologise to those that may need to scroll across to read this post- I had real trouble with one pic refusing to stay @#$%! small enough!

Here are some pics which follow on from a recent thread on the 2.SS Hummel "Clauswitz". In the pics posted earlier one could see beside it an abandoned Sdkfz 251 ausf D, also clearly marked with the yellow 2.SS logo and Artillery Regiment tac sign on its rear.

The shot below is another less familiar one, which appears on p.135 of Mark Bando's excellent 'Breakout at Normandy', published by MBI (USA), 1999. In this view a little more of the relatively rarely seen internally mounted star antenna installation can be seen sticking out on the left of the 251.



The proceeding shot is a blow up from an IWM photo revealing a little more of the antenna instalation (the triangular structure in the rear LH corner of the crew compartment). Even more interestingly is the evidence of a vehicle name in a similar Gothic-style script on the side of the 251/3.



This close up is scanned to a higher resolution. My question to you guys is what name could it be? Unfortunately there seems to have been some slight camera shudder when the image was taken, which makes an I.D. difficult. The eagle eyes amongst you must surely have some goood guesses (Mirko?)



My first suggestion was "Franke", who was a contemporary of Clauswitz in the Prussian army. The problem is, there looks like there might be seven letters in the vehicle's name. The first letter may be an "F" or a "G" (they look similar in Gothic- as do several other letters!). The last three letters look very much like "nke" to me...or maybe "oke"(?) Another guess was "Goethe", but I thought the Nazis banned all reference to him during WW II (maybe they changed their minds when they realised things weren't going to plan).

Anyway, here are some other refs of internal-mount star antenna 251/3. The following one is on p229 of Panzer Grenadiere...der Panzerdivision "Wiking" im Bild, published by Munin Verlag GMBH Osnabuck, 1984.



This final shot is very helpful as it affords a rare peek at the antenna base from within a 251/3 captured by the bloody gutsy Polish resistance, during the Warsaw uprising in August/Septmber 1944. The radio the Poles are removing is resting on the antenna base. This particular e.g. lacks the lip around the top edge of the triangular side plates. The vehicle was apparently nick-named "Jas" by the Poles.



The picture comes from yet another excellent title in the Wydawnictwo Militaria series, No. 148, Warszawa 1944, by Janusz Ledwoch, p.49.

I would encourage everyone to buy all the titles listed above if you come across them- they have much to offer picture-wise for German MV modelers.

Any help in identifying the name on the 2.SS 251/3 would be much appreciated. If anyone has any other pics of these internal-star antenna mount 251/3's, love to hear from you.

Actually Jimmy, I recall you have a scan of another Wiking 251/3, numbered "302" which I've seen...Its a LHS view with two officers manning the MG 42...

Cheers
Baz

PS Thanks James and Chris Leeman for coaching me thru image posting, the neue way!
Hmmm...

I was looking at the last shot... the radio those guys are holding is actually sitting on the forward portion of the main FuG radio support structure- not the star antenna base.

The FuG structure had forward and rear triangular plates sticking up, which look a bit like the internal antenna base from some angles, but without the lip along their upper edges.

I've been trying for the past twenty-odd minutes to post a rear view of "Jas" to show its actual internal antenna mount, but Network 54 isn't cooperating with my pc...


Baz
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Hans Weber
Hans Weber

May 29th, 2002, 5:19 pm #4

Hello fellow 251 buffs

Before I say anything, I must apologise to those that may need to scroll across to read this post- I had real trouble with one pic refusing to stay @#$%! small enough!

Here are some pics which follow on from a recent thread on the 2.SS Hummel "Clauswitz". In the pics posted earlier one could see beside it an abandoned Sdkfz 251 ausf D, also clearly marked with the yellow 2.SS logo and Artillery Regiment tac sign on its rear.

The shot below is another less familiar one, which appears on p.135 of Mark Bando's excellent 'Breakout at Normandy', published by MBI (USA), 1999. In this view a little more of the relatively rarely seen internally mounted star antenna installation can be seen sticking out on the left of the 251.



The proceeding shot is a blow up from an IWM photo revealing a little more of the antenna instalation (the triangular structure in the rear LH corner of the crew compartment). Even more interestingly is the evidence of a vehicle name in a similar Gothic-style script on the side of the 251/3.



This close up is scanned to a higher resolution. My question to you guys is what name could it be? Unfortunately there seems to have been some slight camera shudder when the image was taken, which makes an I.D. difficult. The eagle eyes amongst you must surely have some goood guesses (Mirko?)



My first suggestion was "Franke", who was a contemporary of Clauswitz in the Prussian army. The problem is, there looks like there might be seven letters in the vehicle's name. The first letter may be an "F" or a "G" (they look similar in Gothic- as do several other letters!). The last three letters look very much like "nke" to me...or maybe "oke"(?) Another guess was "Goethe", but I thought the Nazis banned all reference to him during WW II (maybe they changed their minds when they realised things weren't going to plan).

Anyway, here are some other refs of internal-mount star antenna 251/3. The following one is on p229 of Panzer Grenadiere...der Panzerdivision "Wiking" im Bild, published by Munin Verlag GMBH Osnabuck, 1984.



This final shot is very helpful as it affords a rare peek at the antenna base from within a 251/3 captured by the bloody gutsy Polish resistance, during the Warsaw uprising in August/Septmber 1944. The radio the Poles are removing is resting on the antenna base. This particular e.g. lacks the lip around the top edge of the triangular side plates. The vehicle was apparently nick-named "Jas" by the Poles.



The picture comes from yet another excellent title in the Wydawnictwo Militaria series, No. 148, Warszawa 1944, by Janusz Ledwoch, p.49.

I would encourage everyone to buy all the titles listed above if you come across them- they have much to offer picture-wise for German MV modelers.

Any help in identifying the name on the 2.SS 251/3 would be much appreciated. If anyone has any other pics of these internal-star antenna mount 251/3's, love to hear from you.

Actually Jimmy, I recall you have a scan of another Wiking 251/3, numbered "302" which I've seen...Its a LHS view with two officers manning the MG 42...

Cheers
Baz

PS Thanks James and Chris Leeman for coaching me thru image posting, the neue way!
"Kirschke"? You are probably not the slightest interested in a scan of a 251/3 from 2. SS "DR" sporting this name, are you?
Cheers
Hans
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Dave Zimmer
Dave Zimmer

May 29th, 2002, 8:53 pm #5

I resampled this area from 72 dpi to 1000dpi and added the Kirschke name.


<img src=http://members.rogers.com/panzerfiles/251pt2aa.gif>

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Joined: May 26th, 2002, 1:25 am

May 30th, 2002, 5:51 am #6

Hello fellow 251 buffs

Before I say anything, I must apologise to those that may need to scroll across to read this post- I had real trouble with one pic refusing to stay @#$%! small enough!

Here are some pics which follow on from a recent thread on the 2.SS Hummel "Clauswitz". In the pics posted earlier one could see beside it an abandoned Sdkfz 251 ausf D, also clearly marked with the yellow 2.SS logo and Artillery Regiment tac sign on its rear.

The shot below is another less familiar one, which appears on p.135 of Mark Bando's excellent 'Breakout at Normandy', published by MBI (USA), 1999. In this view a little more of the relatively rarely seen internally mounted star antenna installation can be seen sticking out on the left of the 251.



The proceeding shot is a blow up from an IWM photo revealing a little more of the antenna instalation (the triangular structure in the rear LH corner of the crew compartment). Even more interestingly is the evidence of a vehicle name in a similar Gothic-style script on the side of the 251/3.



This close up is scanned to a higher resolution. My question to you guys is what name could it be? Unfortunately there seems to have been some slight camera shudder when the image was taken, which makes an I.D. difficult. The eagle eyes amongst you must surely have some goood guesses (Mirko?)



My first suggestion was "Franke", who was a contemporary of Clauswitz in the Prussian army. The problem is, there looks like there might be seven letters in the vehicle's name. The first letter may be an "F" or a "G" (they look similar in Gothic- as do several other letters!). The last three letters look very much like "nke" to me...or maybe "oke"(?) Another guess was "Goethe", but I thought the Nazis banned all reference to him during WW II (maybe they changed their minds when they realised things weren't going to plan).

Anyway, here are some other refs of internal-mount star antenna 251/3. The following one is on p229 of Panzer Grenadiere...der Panzerdivision "Wiking" im Bild, published by Munin Verlag GMBH Osnabuck, 1984.



This final shot is very helpful as it affords a rare peek at the antenna base from within a 251/3 captured by the bloody gutsy Polish resistance, during the Warsaw uprising in August/Septmber 1944. The radio the Poles are removing is resting on the antenna base. This particular e.g. lacks the lip around the top edge of the triangular side plates. The vehicle was apparently nick-named "Jas" by the Poles.



The picture comes from yet another excellent title in the Wydawnictwo Militaria series, No. 148, Warszawa 1944, by Janusz Ledwoch, p.49.

I would encourage everyone to buy all the titles listed above if you come across them- they have much to offer picture-wise for German MV modelers.

Any help in identifying the name on the 2.SS 251/3 would be much appreciated. If anyone has any other pics of these internal-star antenna mount 251/3's, love to hear from you.

Actually Jimmy, I recall you have a scan of another Wiking 251/3, numbered "302" which I've seen...Its a LHS view with two officers manning the MG 42...

Cheers
Baz

PS Thanks James and Chris Leeman for coaching me thru image posting, the neue way!
Hi

I cannot make out the first letter but after playing with PSP I think it is a six letter name _oirke.

The first letter could be H

Tony

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Hans Weber
Hans Weber

May 30th, 2002, 6:38 am #7

I resampled this area from 72 dpi to 1000dpi and added the Kirschke name.


<img src=http://members.rogers.com/panzerfiles/251pt2aa.gif>
Only the "s" would in this case be the elongated variant, looking more like a "f"
Cheers
Hans
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Dave Zimmer
Dave Zimmer

May 30th, 2002, 12:07 pm #8

Hi

I cannot make out the first letter but after playing with PSP I think it is a six letter name _oirke.

The first letter could be H

Tony

Hello;

Hans Weber sent me another photo of the above 251 and you can see the name is "Kirschke". Thanks Hans.

Dave
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Joined: May 29th, 2002, 2:53 pm

May 30th, 2002, 2:05 pm #9



Finally got the zip sorted Hans. Very nice find mate- thanks for drawing our attention to it. Even though the name and cross are in differing locations to the first 251/3, the name "Kirschke" seems to almost fit the ghostly writing on that SPW, which is erie.

I'm not game to say they are the same- not enough similarities to be sure...could be before a repaint, but seems to be an odd thing to have done.

Is it certain "Kirschke is a radio variant too? I can't quite make out any specific /3 details Hans. Is there a location too- south of France perhaps?

Thanks to all the other guys for putting their two bob in on this.

Cheers
Baz
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Hans Weber
Hans Weber

May 30th, 2002, 2:27 pm #10

Helle Baz,

First things first: The photo is from No 176 39-45 Magazine, credited to Alain Chazette.

The caption reads that it is indeed a 251/3. Probably Mr. Chazette knows more about it and has some other shots to identify the variant. From a series of other "Reich" photos I presume that indeed this has been taken in France prior to the invasion, though I can't prove it. As for the identity of the two vhc I tend to believe that we see the same vhc. First in the plain factory finish and later with the camouflage added and the national cross relocated, but again, nothing is sure as for now.

Cheers
Hans
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