Leopard 2 Austere Version (American Version)

The Modern AFV discussion group is hosted by Erik Gustavsson and covers the variety of AFVs used by all nations in the post WWII era.

Leopard 2 Austere Version (American Version)

Joined: July 8th, 2017, 12:13 pm

August 5th, 2017, 2:03 pm #1

Im throwing around the idea pf building the Leopard 2 austure version the prototype that was tested against both the XM-1
prototypes but cant seem to find any good
Reference photos.
Google images,bing and Pinterest are completly usless
Can anyone help?
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Joined: September 2nd, 2005, 2:49 pm

August 5th, 2017, 6:28 pm #2

I should be able to help if you want to PM me.
I have Frank Lobitz's book on the Leopard 2 as well as the Spielberger book on Krauss Maffei. I have a few photographs as well as dimension drawings. Do you realize that the front hull is about 10" shorter with a completely different configuration than the production version.

Steve
hearn@eastlink.ca
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Joined: May 3rd, 2005, 1:02 pm

August 5th, 2017, 8:54 pm #3

As you're probably aware, Krauss Maffei designed the Arjun tank. I'm just curious if either book bothers to mention the Arjun tank?
Sincerely-
Geoff Steer
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Joined: March 9th, 2012, 4:57 pm

August 5th, 2017, 9:44 pm #4

If Krauss-Maffei had designed that thing, it would work, the only item of German origin in the Arjun is the MTU engine. Neither Indian sources nor Krauss-Maffei ever mentioned anything about German involvement.

Like the Japanese Type 90, the design of the Arjun was inspired by the Leopard 2, but that is about it.

Information not shared is information lost.
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Joined: May 3rd, 2005, 1:02 pm

August 6th, 2017, 12:58 pm #5



"The development of Arjun MBT began in March 1974. The tank heavily depends on foreign technology and equipment. Krauss Maffei, developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance. Hence, the Arjun closely resembles Leopard 2A4 tank.
Up to 25%-30% of the tank components including engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks and fire control systemare imported"

Okay, I'd agree that "provided the design assistance" may not actually mean that Krauss Maffei designed the Arjun. However, considering it appears almost identical to the Leopard II, I always thought that Krauss Maffei may have designed the Arjun to be a Leopard II buildable by Indian industry. I could be wrong about that of course, I would still stand by my belief that the Arjun is a DIY Leopard II. Whatever way you look at it, the resemblance is so close you almost have to ask: "why did Indian not just go ahead and buy some Leopard IIs rather than try to make them locally"?
Sincerely-
Geoff Steer
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Joined: June 23rd, 2003, 4:53 pm

August 6th, 2017, 4:35 pm #6

India also acquired a load of MiG-21s but most of those were built locally and eventually most of the components were built locally also. The factory (and engine plant) were built in areas with no aeronautical experience but high unemployment and had the purpose been solely to acquire jets, buying direct would have made more sense. However, there were other factors and these may also have applied to the MBT production. It takes longer but it provides local jobs and also establishes s base of engineering skills that might not have existed there previously.
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Joined: September 2nd, 2005, 2:49 pm

August 6th, 2017, 9:34 pm #7

As you're probably aware, Krauss Maffei designed the Arjun tank. I'm just curious if either book bothers to mention the Arjun tank?
Sincerely-
Geoff Steer
Hi Geoff.
Sorry, but neither book mentions any cooperative efforts, just the international users of the vehicle.
Steve
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Joined: January 22nd, 2005, 10:18 pm

August 7th, 2017, 12:54 am #8

If Krauss-Maffei had designed that thing, it would work, the only item of German origin in the Arjun is the MTU engine. Neither Indian sources nor Krauss-Maffei ever mentioned anything about German involvement.

Like the Japanese Type 90, the design of the Arjun was inspired by the Leopard 2, but that is about it.
Duhhh J, from the Internet. nt
Last edited by Michael Mummey on August 7th, 2017, 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 9th, 2012, 4:57 pm

August 7th, 2017, 2:00 pm #9


"The development of Arjun MBT began in March 1974. The tank heavily depends on foreign technology and equipment. Krauss Maffei, developer of the German Leopard 2 tank, provided the design assistance. Hence, the Arjun closely resembles Leopard 2A4 tank.
Up to 25%-30% of the tank components including engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks and fire control systemare imported"

Okay, I'd agree that "provided the design assistance" may not actually mean that Krauss Maffei designed the Arjun. However, considering it appears almost identical to the Leopard II, I always thought that Krauss Maffei may have designed the Arjun to be a Leopard II buildable by Indian industry. I could be wrong about that of course, I would still stand by my belief that the Arjun is a DIY Leopard II. Whatever way you look at it, the resemblance is so close you almost have to ask: "why did Indian not just go ahead and buy some Leopard IIs rather than try to make them locally"?
Sincerely-
Geoff Steer
I wonder where army-technology.com came up with that? The original idea behind the Arjun was that it should be at least 50% an indigenous tank, with only some key components imported, like the engine, transmission, tracks and the electronics, the gun is made in India (the barrel not). How well that worked out, can be seen with 124 Mk I and 118 MK II originally to be purchased, less in service, and units and the generals clamouring for more T-90s instead. Those they will get, 347 have been bought from Russia and a further 1000 will be license-built.

Krauss-Maffei designed nothing in regards to the Arjun and if they had, it would have cost India a pretty penny, precisely what they wanted to avoid. It would have been a new design from the ground up in order for Indian industry to be able to build it (would be a different story today), seeing as their car industry built adapted 1950s motorcycles, cars and trucks (some of them are still being built today).

It certainly was inspired to a certain extent by the Leopard 2 (as was the Type 90), it is also somewhat narrower and lower than the Leopard 2. The design is by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), with their Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) doing the main work. It is joked that the Arjun is the best-tested tank in the world and rumour has it that it is usually called "the white elephant". The indigineous share in the end was 31% and the Arjun MkI are not operational anymore due to lack of spares.

Information not shared is information lost.
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Joined: March 9th, 2012, 4:57 pm

August 7th, 2017, 2:01 pm #10

Duhhh J, from the Internet. nt
Information not shared is information lost.
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