In Tomas Chory's book on Wehrmacht camouflage....

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In Tomas Chory's book on Wehrmacht camouflage....

Joined: February 27th, 2005, 7:41 pm

August 7th, 2012, 4:41 pm #1

he states that in the late 1942-early 1943 timeframe, the color shade for the red oxide primer was changed from RAL 8012 to RAL 8013. Has anyone else confirmed this, and if so, what was that shade? Chory does not provide a color reference or chip for RAL 8013. The discussions on the web about using red oxide as part of a camouflage scheme would seem to need a clear understanding of the colors involved, and if RAL 8012 was no longer used after mid-1943, then its color isn't relevant for 1944. Of course, old staocks would be used up, but after a year, they should have been pretty much gone. Just curious if anyone else has found anything on this.
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Joined: August 13th, 2009, 8:53 pm

August 7th, 2012, 8:24 pm #2

I've posted info on this before. Here are two Farbtonkarte which have color chips for RAL 8013:







The closest paint match to RAL 8013 is, believe it or not, Polly Scale Panzer Red Brown. Testors used to have a line of Marine Colors; and, Schiffsbodenfarbe III Rot RAL 8013 was one of the available colors. The Polly Scale, if sprayed on in multiple coats, is good to go.
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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 7:41 pm

August 7th, 2012, 10:46 pm #3

I tried using the search function here, but never found anything on RAL 8013. This is helpful.
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Joined: August 13th, 2009, 8:53 pm

August 8th, 2012, 4:23 am #4

I've mulled over the same thing for a long time. I believe that this is a point of misunderstanding as to what the term "red oxide" refers to when the discussion is about it being integrated into camoflage schemes.

Mr. Chory states that the Genormte Anstriche, on page 66 of his book, was published between the spring of 1942 and 1943 because it already lists colors which were destined for units in Africa, specified in 1942. He also goes on to point out that colors were changed/deleted from the previous list of approved colors. The one which concerns us is Rotbraun. It was allocated the position "13a" in RAL 840 B2, which is an updated version of the one found on page 65 (RAL 840 B). The color which most of us are familiar with as "red oxide/Rotbraun RAL 8012" was listed in this earlier list, but not in the updated one.

I'm going to state that, in my opinion, after studying the different paint and color charts, the use of RAL 8012 as a primer color post Spring 1943 or part of post-Sept 44 camo schemes is flat out incorrect due to misinterpretation of the changes and amendments to the Genormte Anstriche. It was RAL 8013 which is seen on vehicles which have been identified as having red oxide covered with patches of RAL 6003 or 7028. Also, Mr. Chory write on page 44 that

The specified brown color RAL 8017 was clearly not always available, and was substituted with the basic Rot )or Oxidrot) RAL 8012, whose hue was later changed to RAL 8013.

So, all of those camo patterns replicated on various vehicles by modelers, with a decidedly reddish-brown hue, are in fact portraying RAL 8012 or, more likely as the above text indicates, the later RAL 8013 and not RAL 8017. Aside from filters, washes, etc., 8017 will not impart the red hue that 8013 does, regardless of how thinned down or lightly sprayed. It's still more decidedly brown.
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Joined: February 29th, 2012, 4:56 pm

August 9th, 2012, 4:55 pm #5

Due to technical problems, my research-buddy Wenzel Manda from (AHN) is not able to log-in anymore. He asked me to transmit his message/response what i do with this post:


"Hi all! I think, i have to clarify something. RAL 8012 was never changed to the RAL 8013 hue, both colors were used at the same time.There are rumors, that RAL 8013 was deleted in war time, but it did not happen. In the photo you can see both colors from 1940.





The colors did not change till after the end of war, as we have seen on RAL-cards from 1946. So this fact tells us, both colors were available. RAL 8013 is more brown then RAL 8012 and every primer on Wehrmacht-equipment i have seen was more reddish, so RAL 8012 matches best. Another misunderstanding is, that every RAL 8012-hue that we could identify got to be red primer, who can say? The RAL-colors show us just the exact hue, not anything about the chemical components or use. What i want to say, a red brown hue can be anything, a primer or ordinary paint.

Hope this helps!

Best regards!

Wenzel Manda"

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


I also would like to add pics of my Benzinkanister from 1941, which shows a clear RAL 8012 with and without sunlight. I can confirm the statement of Wenzel and i think you can see, how close those two hues were. The first Farbtonkarte in post 1 is worthless because it is just a print from the book "Die Anstriche und Tarnanstriche der deutschen Kriegsmarine" (Page 27) of Dieter Jung and shows RAL 8013 way too brown. The other one shows "13a" of RAL 840 B2 but in a very light and brown way due to a scan.









Greetings
Jens

kingtiger332"at"gmx.de
Kind regards!

Jens M ü h l i g
Historycolors

www.historycolors.de
https://www.facebook.com/www.historycolors.de/
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Joined: August 13th, 2009, 8:53 pm

August 9th, 2012, 9:18 pm #6

Nobody said that RAL 8012 was replaced by 8013 in the RAL register. How you made that connection to what I wrote is mind-boggling, at the very least. It was replaced as an approved color by 8013, as it is not listed in the often mentioned Genormte Anstriche, circa Spring 1942-Spring 1943. The "approved" colors were the ones authorized for use by the various branches of the Wehrmacht. Each branch had its own specific list of authorized colors. Not every color in the RAL register was approved for use, though. Your response is a perfect example of the misinterpretation of information contained in these documents by a large percentage of people who read them. Too many people attempt to read between the lines when there is nothing but empty space which doesn't lend itself well for extrapolating additional data where it doesn't exist.


There's a problem with this statement:

"The colors did not change till after the end of war, as we have seen on RAL-cards from 1946"

The first major overhaul of the RAL register didn't occur until 1953, when most of the wartime colors used by the Wehrmacht were deleted, including 8013. Therefore, you, nor anyone else for that matter, could have seen RAL cards from 1946 because there weren't any. All of the Farbtonkarte were from the WWII period. RKW, of which RAL was a part, became BKW after reorganization in 1950. RAL became an independent entity, seperate from BKW, in 1951.


This is a paint chip set from Snyder & Short Enterprises:



This is what they have to say about the accuracy of their color set:

"A caveat about this first Kriegsmarine color set. We have had to rely on the limited original sources available. We used research materials generated by Flak Pletscher, the autors Jung/Abendroth/Kelling and their book Anstriche und Tarmanstriche der deutschen Kriegsmarine, second edition, and archival chips and material sent to the RAL Institute by Wilhemshaven. The colors in the ATDK book are based on an examination of color cards returned to the Bundesarchive by the Russians in the 1990s. We have used cross-references of the World War 2 colors to the RAL colors. All colors were matched to eliminate metamerism and will therefore match the original in any light."


The RAL 8013 sample they provide is a lot browner than 8012. So is the alternate version, to its right. The second example I provided came from



Here is another page:



13a (RAL 8013) shown above is a pretty close match to the alternate Schiffsbodenfarbe Rot in Snyder & Short's color chart, isn't it?

Also, the information listed in Genormte Anstriche (Chory, p.66), came from an officially issued wartime document. It plainly shows that 8012 was superseded by 8013, sometime in 1942-3.

For you, or Wenzel, to assert that the chart from ATDK is worthless, is amusing and incorrect. Snyder & Short even make it a point to say that the ATDK charts are based on examination of the original color charts returned to the Bundesarchiv. That carries more weight than your pronouncement that it is worthless. back to you.

Last edited by Joe Zrodlowski on August 10th, 2012, 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 29th, 2012, 4:56 pm

August 10th, 2012, 7:32 pm #7

Hi Joseph. It is just about the subject that matters. I will ignore side blows or something else, because it doesn't bring us any further...

I will be in Freiburg Bundesarchiv again in September f.e. I hope that tells you, that we have a deeper interest for original sources and we are not willing only to scratch the surface or spread rumors.

First i did not say, that information of chart from ATDK is worthless. Of course I own the book and it is very interesting too. I talked about the print-version of colours in a book which can never be as good as a painted colour chart (as a reference) like Chory did in his book or original RAL charts as we own or we have reviewed over the years. It is the same thing as the colour-pic of the Jagdtiger, which can never be a single reference but a clue or hint - no question.

I can tell you again, that we found a lot of original items of vehicles and tanks built in late 1944 which had a basecoat/primer in RAL 8012 and never in 8013 hue. There is f.e. an order how to paint a specific armored vehicle from early 1945, which calls one the camo hues as RAL 8012 too. That's why we say it can not be true "...a primer color post Spring 1943 or part of post-Sept 44 camo schemes is flat out incorrect due to misinterpretation of the changes and amendments to the Genormte Anstriche. It was RAL 8013 which is seen on vehicles which have been identified as having red oxide covered with patches of RAL 6003 or 7028."

Of course we know, how RAL-Institution has evolved from 30ies untill today and what changes happened to the register over these years. Also we know that colors were authorized for use by the various branches of the Wehrmacht in a specific order.

Wenzel maybe will answer you about the 1946-thing, so you can follow us.

You posted an interesting paint set of Snyder & Short Enterprises. I think that one shows a good version of 8013. We did show you original RAL cards from 1940 we compared to others we found and they were identical. So there should be no more need of a discussion about hue RAL 8013 itself.



Greetings
Jens

kingtiger332"at"gmx.de
Last edited by Jens M ü h l i g on August 11th, 2012, 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kind regards!

Jens M ü h l i g
Historycolors

www.historycolors.de
https://www.facebook.com/www.historycolors.de/
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Joined: August 13th, 2009, 8:53 pm

August 10th, 2012, 8:24 pm #8

in Freiburg, Jens. Weren't the Freiburg archives supposed to have been transferred to Berlin for consolidation?

I also have a copy of ATDK and agree that it is a very useful and informative book. I was going to scan that particular page; but, there was already one available on the internet. The S&S sets are really nice references. I believe White Ensign used the chips to formulate their KM paint line.

My reasoning for the use of 8013 as part of camo schemes coincides with what Chory wrote; that being, 8017 was not always readily available to line units and 8013 was used in its place. 8017 doesn't impart the same reddish-brown hue as does 8013, no matter how thinned out or lightly sprayed. It still has a distinct brown hue. 8012 is too red, without the brown.

I'm still waiting for the people at RAL to send me the information I requested about 840 B2 and color compatibility with modern RAL registers. Once I receive it, you are welcome to use it in your project, if you wish.
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Joined: February 29th, 2012, 4:56 pm

August 11th, 2012, 6:29 am #9

The important sources of our subject are still in Freiburg as far as they survived wartime. There is no question, that RAL 8017 and 8013/8012 are very different and as i wrote there exist proved camouflage-scheme orders from WaA which replaced RAL 8017 to RAL 8012 as camouflage colour on several armored vehicles (Sd.Kfz). Maybe we can solve the question RAL 8012 or 8013 usage in praxis (as the mentioned source by Chory), but all original parts we have seen so far had 8012 hue. But never forget, that only an order on paper does not mean, that is was followed all the time or in every distinctive way, although it is and was german mentality to work in a standardized way.

About RAL-Institut i can tell you, that they have NO interest in supporting researchers like us about information from 1930 to 1953. We made (and still make) many attempts to get a deeper insight in documents or archives of WWII-times but they inhibit the slightest possibility of a lighting. We know some reasons why... So if you get real interesting and unofficial new information from RAL, you can call yourself a very lucky man! F.e. they still proclaim, that the mustard-like "Dunkelgelb nach Muster" (a hue just for africa) was the one and only RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb untill 1945, which is - without any doubt - a proved and totally different hue. Any questions? Of course, we are interested in every useful source, which can bring us a step forward. If you want to share something interesting, you are welcome!

Greetings
Jens

kingtiger332"at"gmx.de
Kind regards!

Jens M ü h l i g
Historycolors

www.historycolors.de
https://www.facebook.com/www.historycolors.de/
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