How dirty should stuff get?

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How dirty should stuff get?

Matt Black
Matt Black

October 17th, 2000, 11:38 am #1

I've been talking with many modelers about this and have gotten many various opinions. Some modelers thing alittle is alot, so go easy on whethering, others say the opposite. Personally, I love to beat up fenders, mud in the tracks, guys with 3 day beards and worn clothes for my dios, but some say this is too much. I figure that war is hell and these guys could care less about being all pretty. What do you think? Should dios be clean or not? Of course, alot would have to do with what's going on in the dio, so lets say Russian front in 42 during the fall.
Thanks,
Matt
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Danny
Danny

October 17th, 2000, 12:48 pm #2

Its really up to you. If you care about contest-winning, then less is definitely better. Otherwise, in the real world military vehicles get incredibly dirty. Based just on my peacetime experience, our vehicels got so covered in mud that they could have been painted any color you care to name and no one would have known. And that type of coverage only takes about five minutes to achieve on a muddy trail.

At AMPS East 2000, somebody had a US M-60A3 or A1 (can't remember which) that was very heavily weathered. It was so much that it looked unreal, until I saw the photos he brought along to document that, if anything, his weathering was conservative. So if you do go for a heavy weathering job at a contest, I think his was an excellent approach to backing up what he did.

Same with troops. Any Infantryman or vehicle crewman in the field a couple days will be filthy. Be careful of peacetime settings when rules about shaving and uniform cleanliness may or may not be enforced rigidly.
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Rob plas
Rob plas

October 17th, 2000, 1:22 pm #3

I've been talking with many modelers about this and have gotten many various opinions. Some modelers thing alittle is alot, so go easy on whethering, others say the opposite. Personally, I love to beat up fenders, mud in the tracks, guys with 3 day beards and worn clothes for my dios, but some say this is too much. I figure that war is hell and these guys could care less about being all pretty. What do you think? Should dios be clean or not? Of course, alot would have to do with what's going on in the dio, so lets say Russian front in 42 during the fall.
Thanks,
Matt
what diorama you are building.
I personally have a big preference for dirty, worn vehicles and figures.

I have won several prices, including a gold medal on the 1999 IPMS Nationals (In the Netherlands) for my diorama's, vehicles and 120mm figures.
All of these subjects were weathered heavily
Specially the 120mm fig of a Royal Marine Commano during the final stages of the Falkland war won that gold because the judges liked the realistic approach and the "right feeling" they got when studying the fig. This guy has dirty wet knees, elbows and bottom, a worn coat of black camo cream on his face and mud on his boots. Just make sure the kit fits in its surroundings very well, using the same shades of dirt on the dio as on the vehicles or figs, but make sure that the dirt looks realistic.

Personally I don't like the idea of a vehicle with minimal weathering on a muddy diorama, because it gives the impression that the vehicle was oplaced there with a chinook helicopter just moments ago.
Hope this helps.
Rob

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Ian Sadler
Ian Sadler

October 17th, 2000, 6:09 pm #4

Its really up to you. If you care about contest-winning, then less is definitely better. Otherwise, in the real world military vehicles get incredibly dirty. Based just on my peacetime experience, our vehicels got so covered in mud that they could have been painted any color you care to name and no one would have known. And that type of coverage only takes about five minutes to achieve on a muddy trail.

At AMPS East 2000, somebody had a US M-60A3 or A1 (can't remember which) that was very heavily weathered. It was so much that it looked unreal, until I saw the photos he brought along to document that, if anything, his weathering was conservative. So if you do go for a heavy weathering job at a contest, I think his was an excellent approach to backing up what he did.

Same with troops. Any Infantryman or vehicle crewman in the field a couple days will be filthy. Be careful of peacetime settings when rules about shaving and uniform cleanliness may or may not be enforced rigidly.
Hi speaking to several vets from the Korean War I was suprised to learn that in on case He did not change his cloths for 38 days and only had two changes of underwear in that time. It was only after he was pulled out of line that their uniforms were taken away and burnt and they were issued with new sets.
One vet told me that after about 10 days no body bothered to speak about the smell any longer. hope this helps in some small way cheers ian
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Matt Black
Matt Black

October 17th, 2000, 7:32 pm #5

what diorama you are building.
I personally have a big preference for dirty, worn vehicles and figures.

I have won several prices, including a gold medal on the 1999 IPMS Nationals (In the Netherlands) for my diorama's, vehicles and 120mm figures.
All of these subjects were weathered heavily
Specially the 120mm fig of a Royal Marine Commano during the final stages of the Falkland war won that gold because the judges liked the realistic approach and the "right feeling" they got when studying the fig. This guy has dirty wet knees, elbows and bottom, a worn coat of black camo cream on his face and mud on his boots. Just make sure the kit fits in its surroundings very well, using the same shades of dirt on the dio as on the vehicles or figs, but make sure that the dirt looks realistic.

Personally I don't like the idea of a vehicle with minimal weathering on a muddy diorama, because it gives the impression that the vehicle was oplaced there with a chinook helicopter just moments ago.
Hope this helps.
Rob
Thanx everyone for your help. I've always drifted toward dirty becuase that's the way I've always heard it in real life. I love Ians' dios in the gallery mostly because of the weathering. I do US Civil War reenacting, and we get pretty dirty just in one weekend. Also, we're standing in pretty lines, not jumping into muddy foxholes.

I was working on a dio with some Germans ambushing/attacking a T-34 from behind a building in '42-43. My airbrush quit so the T-34 part may be on hold. For now, the building must be built (from scratch) and the figures completed. These should take me a while so I can fix/replace my airbrush.

The only problem with the airbrush is that it tends to spray downward and the paint gets caught on a ridge around the edge, then splatter off when enough is built up. I think if I carefully sand down that edge, I won't have the splatter probelem and the only minor problem will be that it sprays alittle down. I've got several dios done, but nobody to photograph them so I can put them here. If I do get someone, the first thing I'll do is scan them and send 'em here.

Happy modeling,
Matt
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Rob Plas
Rob Plas

October 17th, 2000, 10:18 pm #6

The way you describe your airbush problems it looks like the nozzle where the needle come out is damaged.
I had this problem too, and you need to look very carefully to see it.
Basically the needle opens a ring in the nozzle where the air/paint mix can escape. The more you pull the needle backwards, the bigger the opening and more of the mix will be released.
I bought a new nozzle and I didn't have any problems since
HTH
Rob
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BRUCE BARBER
BRUCE BARBER

October 18th, 2000, 5:18 pm #7

Thanx everyone for your help. I've always drifted toward dirty becuase that's the way I've always heard it in real life. I love Ians' dios in the gallery mostly because of the weathering. I do US Civil War reenacting, and we get pretty dirty just in one weekend. Also, we're standing in pretty lines, not jumping into muddy foxholes.

I was working on a dio with some Germans ambushing/attacking a T-34 from behind a building in '42-43. My airbrush quit so the T-34 part may be on hold. For now, the building must be built (from scratch) and the figures completed. These should take me a while so I can fix/replace my airbrush.

The only problem with the airbrush is that it tends to spray downward and the paint gets caught on a ridge around the edge, then splatter off when enough is built up. I think if I carefully sand down that edge, I won't have the splatter probelem and the only minor problem will be that it sprays alittle down. I've got several dios done, but nobody to photograph them so I can put them here. If I do get someone, the first thing I'll do is scan them and send 'em here.

Happy modeling,
Matt
HI MATT
I LIKE TO THINK THAT WE AS MILITARY MODELLERS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO TELL IT LIKE IT WAS.
WAR IS DIRTY AND DISGUSTING BUISNESS AND WE AS MILITARY MODELLERS CAN EDUCATE THE PUBLIC AS TO WHAT OUR VETERANS DID FOR US SO WE HAVE TO GET IT AS RIGHT AS POSSIBLE I'M A CIVIL WAR RE-ENACTOR TOO{CAPT 20TH MAINE} AND ONE OF OUR MAIN FOCUS IS TO EDUCATE ,THE SAME HOLDS TRUE FOR THIS HOBBY.

SEE YA AT THE NEXT RE-ENACTMENT SOLDIER
CAPT BRUCE BARBER I CO 20TH MAINE INF. VOLS
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Matt Black
Matt Black

October 19th, 2000, 1:58 am #8

Bruce,
I'm a drummer and the leader of a fife and drum corps in the 4th Batt., Army of N. Virginia. 30th NC Inf, to be exact. Were you at 135th Gettysburg? Boy, was that a show or what!
See you on the field,
Matt Black
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Brian J. Kelly
Brian J. Kelly

November 20th, 2000, 9:46 pm #9

Hi speaking to several vets from the Korean War I was suprised to learn that in on case He did not change his cloths for 38 days and only had two changes of underwear in that time. It was only after he was pulled out of line that their uniforms were taken away and burnt and they were issued with new sets.
One vet told me that after about 10 days no body bothered to speak about the smell any longer. hope this helps in some small way cheers ian
This is an interesting subject.
My grandfather was in WWI (Canadian Forces). One of the stories he told was of how they were required to shave,wash etc. on about 1/2 cup of water (about .15 litre). He said, they got clean! If there was time, dirt was probably knocked or brushed off the vehicles as much as possible. Because dirt, even on the outside, can foul your intakes, turret, roadwheels, optics, gun tubes, breeches, track, grease nipples,and so forth. Whenever possible, they cleaned selves and stuff. Total negligence is simply not tolerated in the military. However, this was tempered by the fact that access to water, soap, brooms, etc could be limited. In the U.S. army, it probably greatly depended on the command and how well they acquired stuff for, and took care of, their troops. The German Army liked cleanliness and order, their stereotype notwithstanding, but were probably among the dirtiest due to their resource situation. However, there are more than a few photos of them throwing buckets of water onto wheel wells, shaving, etc. Anyway, you might decide what you're trying to portray, and show the results (close to rear elements? a favored unit? a new unit? a cut-off unit?).
No "rule" exists on this topic. You can justify a clean or filthy vehicle.
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Steve
Steve

November 22nd, 2000, 1:33 am #10

I built the M60A3TTS at AMPS East 2000. I documented it for the precise reasons you cited. Many model builders do vehicles way too clean, but what we do is an art too.
However, AMPS East 2000 was held at Fort Dix and the greatest compliment I recieved on the kit was not the bronze medal, but the attention the kit recieved from the staff of the facility, they stood and looked at the kit for most of the show and all commented favorably on it and how well it captured what the vehicles up at Fort Drum looked like.
Some remarked that they remembered the specific vehicle modeled and the people who crewed her. The senior NCOs present especially complimentd the kit which was the only National Guard vehicle at a show held at a National Guard facility.
As for me I was in the Guard 11 years, and my comments on weathering are notorious among those who know me. Suspensions can be filthy on models, BE VERY CAREFUL elsewhere. As for uniforms and figures use dustings of pastels, it gives the right, dim dusty look.
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