Dragon M48... / Magach - engine reardoor this time

The Modern AFV discussion group is hosted by Erik Gustavsson and covers the variety of AFVs used by all nations in the post WWII era.

Dragon M48... / Magach - engine reardoor this time

Joined: April 18th, 2005, 2:14 pm

August 22nd, 2017, 7:56 pm #1

Hi

... followed the related posts here so far, understood them in general, but hadn't 'a picture' in mind.
... ran through all the -Dragon- kits - w/o Mod.B (still on order, but I've the instructions)

Result:


Then I studied my main sources (Hunnicutt, ...in Action, Vanguard 29) and stored pictures - but not the complete www, forgive me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
- the frame (green): small is for A2 (gasoline), slightly bigger is at diesel (A3/A5).
Is it the same in the Magach-world?

- the strenghtening of the door (red) was a part of (early?) Vietnam experience, coming 1967 with (...A1 into...) A3 Mod.B conversions. This (and other changes) came to the earlier A3-conversions due...? US only?

What does that mean...
Is the A3 Dragon reardoor (C in the picure) just suitable for a limited number of (US) M48A3s, and A5s rebuilt from these specific A3s?

To cut a long story short =>
Do we need the DEF for some US- and nearly all none-US- A3s and A5s worldwide, including M48-Magachs?


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not counting nuts and bolts, the differences about these I don't mind.
Thanks
Frank

BTW 1: if you find mistakes in the pic/factsheet please tell me. I know sometimes sprues are changed by companies, but that is what I found.
BTW 2: PLEASE stay within the topic. I like the Dragon M48!

Last edited by fraleoc on August 22nd, 2017, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 20th, 2001, 2:56 am

August 22nd, 2017, 11:03 pm #2

The Norwegian M48A5s also have the door strengthener/louver guard.

Not sure of the upgrade history. Might have been delivered as A3. http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/erik_torp/m48a5/

Paul
Last edited by Paul Truhe on August 22nd, 2017, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 3:05 pm

August 23rd, 2017, 4:43 am #3

Hi

... followed the related posts here so far, understood them in general, but hadn't 'a picture' in mind.
... ran through all the -Dragon- kits - w/o Mod.B (still on order, but I've the instructions)

Result:


Then I studied my main sources (Hunnicutt, ...in Action, Vanguard 29) and stored pictures - but not the complete www, forgive me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
- the frame (green): small is for A2 (gasoline), slightly bigger is at diesel (A3/A5).
Is it the same in the Magach-world?

- the strenghtening of the door (red) was a part of (early?) Vietnam experience, coming 1967 with (...A1 into...) A3 Mod.B conversions. This (and other changes) came to the earlier A3-conversions due...? US only?

What does that mean...
Is the A3 Dragon reardoor (C in the picure) just suitable for a limited number of (US) M48A3s, and A5s rebuilt from these specific A3s?

To cut a long story short =>
Do we need the DEF for some US- and nearly all none-US- A3s and A5s worldwide, including M48-Magachs?


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not counting nuts and bolts, the differences about these I don't mind.
Thanks
Frank

BTW 1: if you find mistakes in the pic/factsheet please tell me. I know sometimes sprues are changed by companies, but that is what I found.
BTW 2: PLEASE stay within the topic. I like the Dragon M48!
The DEF is for M48A3s. The Dragon part with the ribs on the doors part 36, while included in several kits, is only for M48A3 MOD Bs and M48A5s. The part is not that hard to convert for use with the M48A3 and Magach 3, but it's easier to use the DEF parts. Yes the part for A2s and Magach 2s is different from A3s.

Greek M48A2G



M48A3



M48A3 MOD B, same on the A5



Why would they change the engine doors on Magachs? It's what ever they were based off of.
Last edited by Gary Owsley on August 23rd, 2017, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 21st, 2005, 4:43 pm

August 23rd, 2017, 7:18 am #4

Hi

... followed the related posts here so far, understood them in general, but hadn't 'a picture' in mind.
... ran through all the -Dragon- kits - w/o Mod.B (still on order, but I've the instructions)

Result:


Then I studied my main sources (Hunnicutt, ...in Action, Vanguard 29) and stored pictures - but not the complete www, forgive me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
- the frame (green): small is for A2 (gasoline), slightly bigger is at diesel (A3/A5).
Is it the same in the Magach-world?

- the strenghtening of the door (red) was a part of (early?) Vietnam experience, coming 1967 with (...A1 into...) A3 Mod.B conversions. This (and other changes) came to the earlier A3-conversions due...? US only?

What does that mean...
Is the A3 Dragon reardoor (C in the picure) just suitable for a limited number of (US) M48A3s, and A5s rebuilt from these specific A3s?

To cut a long story short =>
Do we need the DEF for some US- and nearly all none-US- A3s and A5s worldwide, including M48-Magachs?


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not counting nuts and bolts, the differences about these I don't mind.
Thanks
Frank

BTW 1: if you find mistakes in the pic/factsheet please tell me. I know sometimes sprues are changed by companies, but that is what I found.
BTW 2: PLEASE stay within the topic. I like the Dragon M48!
C door good for this one.

Olivier
http://olivier.carneau.free.fr/gb_version/index.htm
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Joined: April 25th, 2005, 11:46 am

August 23rd, 2017, 6:51 pm #5

Hi

... followed the related posts here so far, understood them in general, but hadn't 'a picture' in mind.
... ran through all the -Dragon- kits - w/o Mod.B (still on order, but I've the instructions)

Result:


Then I studied my main sources (Hunnicutt, ...in Action, Vanguard 29) and stored pictures - but not the complete www, forgive me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
- the frame (green): small is for A2 (gasoline), slightly bigger is at diesel (A3/A5).
Is it the same in the Magach-world?

- the strenghtening of the door (red) was a part of (early?) Vietnam experience, coming 1967 with (...A1 into...) A3 Mod.B conversions. This (and other changes) came to the earlier A3-conversions due...? US only?

What does that mean...
Is the A3 Dragon reardoor (C in the picure) just suitable for a limited number of (US) M48A3s, and A5s rebuilt from these specific A3s?

To cut a long story short =>
Do we need the DEF for some US- and nearly all none-US- A3s and A5s worldwide, including M48-Magachs?


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not counting nuts and bolts, the differences about these I don't mind.
Thanks
Frank

BTW 1: if you find mistakes in the pic/factsheet please tell me. I know sometimes sprues are changed by companies, but that is what I found.
BTW 2: PLEASE stay within the topic. I like the Dragon M48!
for clarity

The conversion kit for the M48A5 included the reinforced doors and rear light clusters (square not arched shape), regardless of the baseline vehicle, note that the A2 hump and upper deck louvres are different to the A3, the A3 standard is that installed to make an A5.

IDF Magachs were obtained from a variety of sources; when re-engined (post 67) with the diesel engine the following tended to happen, although is not a definitive statement

A1s (either supplied direct or captured from Jordan by the IDF) had the full standard A3 engine upgrade as per the US army (but not Mod B standard, the ex Budge/Littlefield vehicle is one of these)

A2s had their existing humps and louvres modified to accept the airfilter boxes and pipework, the rear panel was unmodified (at least 1 survivor in Port Said and 1 at Bar Lev bunker in the Sinai)

A3s didn't need any work as they already had that engine fitted, in service in small numbers in 67, more supplied after, no evidence of any Mod B standard supplied

Some US converted A5s were also delivered to the IDF (there is one at Latrun)


I am not sure if DML actually do a true M48A3 rear door in any kit, it would be the same as Sprue D part 36 without the bits in red and would only be usable on a non Mod B A3, in other words a converted M48, A1, A2 that had the US standardised package embodied, and is exactly what DEF produce. The supplied part (Sprue D pt36) is ONLY usable for the M48A3 Mod B kit, unless DML are going to release an A5 at some point.

BTW if anyone has a surplus A2 door panel (sprue G part 37) going spare I would gladly pay for it!! PM me if interested please

MJH

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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 3:05 pm

August 23rd, 2017, 11:29 pm #6

The IDF received a bunch of M48A3 MOD Bs in 1974. These are what ended up as Magach 5s later on.





DML was so lazy when they did their M60s that instead of fixing the M48A3 doors they included the A2 doors.
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Joined: April 25th, 2005, 11:46 am

August 24th, 2017, 6:27 am #7

I guess what we thought was an A5 at latrun is one of those with magach bits on it

Mjh
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 2:14 pm

August 24th, 2017, 11:24 am #8

Hi

... followed the related posts here so far, understood them in general, but hadn't 'a picture' in mind.
... ran through all the -Dragon- kits - w/o Mod.B (still on order, but I've the instructions)

Result:


Then I studied my main sources (Hunnicutt, ...in Action, Vanguard 29) and stored pictures - but not the complete www, forgive me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong:
- the frame (green): small is for A2 (gasoline), slightly bigger is at diesel (A3/A5).
Is it the same in the Magach-world?

- the strenghtening of the door (red) was a part of (early?) Vietnam experience, coming 1967 with (...A1 into...) A3 Mod.B conversions. This (and other changes) came to the earlier A3-conversions due...? US only?

What does that mean...
Is the A3 Dragon reardoor (C in the picure) just suitable for a limited number of (US) M48A3s, and A5s rebuilt from these specific A3s?

To cut a long story short =>
Do we need the DEF for some US- and nearly all none-US- A3s and A5s worldwide, including M48-Magachs?


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not counting nuts and bolts, the differences about these I don't mind.
Thanks
Frank

BTW 1: if you find mistakes in the pic/factsheet please tell me. I know sometimes sprues are changed by companies, but that is what I found.
BTW 2: PLEASE stay within the topic. I like the Dragon M48!
The basic facts are clear. Gary's pics matching my overview.

I started wondering when I learned that Dragon's A3 (#3546) has no option for the early M1 Cupola - w/o bulged hatch cover and G305 Riser. Ok, it's Dragon. The none-bulged hatch cover needed for the early cupola is included in the Magach 1/2 kit only so far - an A2/A2C likely to come in future. However.

Back to A3 Mod B.
According to Hunnicut, page 230
"The vision block ring [G305] and other late modifications were eventually retrofitted to the earlier M48A3s. After that program was complete, the Mod B designation was dropped."
A3 conversion started in 1962, A3 Mod.B 1967.

Does '...other late modifications...' means ALL of them? headlights, fenders,... and engine rear door with rear light housing?
Or just selected ones? making Dragon A3 an early A3 retroffited with parts of Mod B programm, or is it fantasy?
USMC M48s differs again.
That was my starting point.
The question what happend to M48 given away before converted in US when upgraded by the new user-Nation, differs from Nation to Nation, and specially with IDF.
Indeed I wondered if IDF changed the rear door when started dieselasation of Magach 2, as Mark pointed out.

So, thanks for all the responses and pics so far! I'll carry on sampling...
Frank
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 3:05 pm

August 26th, 2017, 10:47 pm #9

I guess what we thought was an A5 at latrun is one of those with magach bits on it

Mjh
They did receive some A5s in the late `70s.
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 3:05 pm

August 26th, 2017, 11:00 pm #10

The basic facts are clear. Gary's pics matching my overview.

I started wondering when I learned that Dragon's A3 (#3546) has no option for the early M1 Cupola - w/o bulged hatch cover and G305 Riser. Ok, it's Dragon. The none-bulged hatch cover needed for the early cupola is included in the Magach 1/2 kit only so far - an A2/A2C likely to come in future. However.

Back to A3 Mod B.
According to Hunnicut, page 230
"The vision block ring [G305] and other late modifications were eventually retrofitted to the earlier M48A3s. After that program was complete, the Mod B designation was dropped."
A3 conversion started in 1962, A3 Mod.B 1967.

Does '...other late modifications...' means ALL of them? headlights, fenders,... and engine rear door with rear light housing?
Or just selected ones? making Dragon A3 an early A3 retroffited with parts of Mod B programm, or is it fantasy?
USMC M48s differs again.
That was my starting point.
The question what happend to M48 given away before converted in US when upgraded by the new user-Nation, differs from Nation to Nation, and specially with IDF.
Indeed I wondered if IDF changed the rear door when started dieselasation of Magach 2, as Mark pointed out.

So, thanks for all the responses and pics so far! I'll carry on sampling...
Frank
Hunnicut is not infallible. Risers and bulged hatches didn't start showing up till sometime in `67 and the MOD B rebuilds( new engine door, new headlight set up, later side loaders, armored tail light housings, along with the riser and bulged hatch ) in late`68 early `69. DML's M48A3 is what it states it to be, as is their M48A3 MOD B. There are plenty of pics out there to prove the point.
Last edited by Gary Owsley on August 27th, 2017, 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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