Be careful what you wish for?

Hosted by Al Bowie and Brett Green, the General AFV Modelling discussion group covers any general military modelling topic including industry news and announcements.

Be careful what you wish for?

Joined: April 24th, 2005, 12:23 am

June 7th, 2012, 9:30 am #1

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
Last edited by Al Bowie on June 7th, 2012, 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 1st, 2004, 12:04 pm

June 7th, 2012, 10:42 am #2

Al, I do agree with you, I find Bronco's choice of subject excellent, but the execution seems a little bit like showing off, "hey guys, look how small we can mould parts"?

There could be a logical error in Bronco's policy, as visit to any model show (in the UK anyway) I see that most modellers are 50+, therefore they are starting to suffer some age related degradation in their eyesight, so such kits don't help the average modeller.

To be fair in some kits, they (Bronco) do offer 'easy' and 'finescale' alternatives, which seems sensible.

jh
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 1:46 pm

June 7th, 2012, 11:14 am #3

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
though I have no direct knowledge of the kits you speak of...the instructions to the 57mm AT gun do look pretty complez though...I have been steering away from the overly detailed/complex kits recently due to time, the prices of those kits and those beast's take away what modeling is about for me...fun. We all screamed for accuracy back a number of years ago and it has become a "be careful what one wishes for" since now if a kit is not 500-1000 parts the modeling world turns up their noses.
I do not believe many will agree with me since many suffer from AMS, just wish the model manufactures would remember not every model builder is building a museum masterpiece when we sit down to work on a kit. Just my 2 cents, Mike
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 5:47 pm

June 7th, 2012, 12:13 pm #4

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
I guess it depends on what we are hoping to get from the kit.
I keep starting my DML Panzer IVs but never usually get passed the suspension.I just look at the parts and think nah, I'll go build a Trumpeter KV or something by Tamiya.
Most people have kits that they will keep for a quick weekend project, just for something to do and to pass the time whilst doing something more complex/waiting for parts/info.None of my DML kits are weekend kits, they are all involved projects, simply because, I ain't going to pay that kinda money, for a kit with that part count, that needs that much effort to build, and use it for a nice simple build.

I actually like seeing older Tamiya builds now...they seem so stress free.Oh and fun.

Jon
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Joined: April 20th, 2005, 9:28 pm

June 7th, 2012, 12:58 pm #5

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
For being brave enough to open this discussion. I have found kits to be over-engineered to the point of insanity. I think the motto is, "Why use one part when ten will do." I just started a batch of DML sturmgeschutz and my old eyes and fingers protested. I almost went for my Tamitya Finnish Sturmis. I wonder if the high cost of kits might be brought down a bit with a reduction of the parts.

I used to really enjoy the process of making models, the whole process. But by the time I finish assembling some of these psycho-detailed kits the work of painting, weathering, and designing a setting is a lot less enjoyable. I also wondber how much this excessive parts count and fiddly construction turns off the newer generation of modelers.

Bob Potter
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Joined: May 20th, 2005, 9:13 pm

June 7th, 2012, 2:25 pm #6

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
..I sure do hope that the cost of electron microscopes become more affordable so that I can complete some of the kits....all's I'm sayin is...

Mike
Mike Peplinski
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Joined: April 18th, 2005, 1:46 pm

June 7th, 2012, 2:44 pm #7

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
20 something, with 20 something eyes....even so, besides the it's going to happen eye sight issues at some point, kit cost's and the fact some kits just suck the fun right out of the air because they've been designed to be more complex then ever....me like another poster am getting more fun and more accomplished doing older Tamiya/Italeri/Trumpeter kits, with a small amount of tweaking, then moving on. Mike
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Joined: February 9th, 2011, 11:44 pm

June 7th, 2012, 2:51 pm #8

I definitely like to alternate "simple" and "complex" projects. The simple lack of visual progress on some of the Dragon and Bronco kits from night to night can get almost frustrating at times. I'm leading our local AMPS Club Build of the Bronco Chaffee, and having just completed the suspension.... there wasn't a lot of 'fun' to it beyond the click together tracks, which were awesome.

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Joined: November 20th, 2004, 12:44 am

June 7th, 2012, 3:00 pm #9

I suppose this is a direct result of my eyesight starting to go but the recent trend to massive complexity in kits is really beginning to diminish my enjoyment of the hobby. Given the wonderous new moulding techniques and capabilities why do we have to have 500-1000 part kits? Like most modellers I really like my accuracy but after building the Bronco 17 pounder I was left pondering the fact that a hell of a lot of the fiddly over complicated parts could have been mould as 1 or two parts instead of the 17 miniscule parts in the kits. The 25 pounder is even more complex and it is like Bronco have tried to replicated every individual part of the real thing. These are both superb and thoroughly detail rich kits but the buildability goes down exponentially especially when I have to fold a PE square the size of a pin head on three different axis.
Yesterday I recieved the Orange Hobby 57mm M1 gun thinking this is resin it will have the minimum of parts but to my astonishment it has an equal number of parts to the 25 pounder and miniscule PE parts in huge qty to match. For a gun as small as this to be more complex than its larger cousin the 17 pounder (itself a complex kit) just has me shaking my head. This kit is like a detailed injection moulded one rather than the typical resin one. Hats off to Orange hobby as this is a superb kit with stunning quality but one I will personally find a chore to build. Have a look at the instructions to get an idea of what I am talking about. The PE frets are about 1"x 1" (2) and have about 100 different bits on them giving you an idea of the small size of some of these parts.






I sure many modellers would revell in the challenge of such complexity and by no means do I wish to see a return to monstrosities like the Tamiya 6 pdr but I'd like to see a good balance between complexity, accuracy and buildability. If the part can be moulded in one piece then please do that, not try and break it down into 9 minute carpet loving bits. DML gave us Smart kits which were suppossed to simplify the process but some of these are equally complex and miss the point IMHO. TASCA Shermans to me are more like a smart kit and keep a stunning level of accuracy with ease of build. I'm curious as to others views on this
Al
I buy Bronco figures but not their AFV kits. With my sausage fingers and eyesight not what it used to be I can just about manage Dragon and Tasca but get even more fun out of building Trumpeter kits.
For the record I'm 49

Pat McGrath
Work to become not to acquire
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Joined: April 20th, 2005, 9:28 pm

June 7th, 2012, 3:55 pm #10

Great response here, I expected to be howled off the stage by the cognisanti.

When the Bronco Staghound came out, I bought two. (BTW, is there a twelve-step program for plastic junkies? I MAY want to join.) Then the Italeri Staghound came around. I bought one. I built one Bronco and the Italieri. As I was deciding that this was a really neat vehicle with bags of potential for Commonwealth and Polish forces in Italy, I wanted more. I went right to Italieri and consigned my Bronco left-over to my local hobby shop (where it still resides). Side by side built up, they both looked reasonable to me. Stowed to the nines, painted, and weathered, in my mind's eye there was little difference. Maybe that is why I keep hoping Italieri will stay on their armored car program.

When you look at what Hobbyboss has done with their Easy Assembly 1/72 and now 1/48 aircraft kits, there has to be a market for such kits in armor. If you hve not looked at one of these kits, please do so. They are little marvels.

Bob Potter

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