11th Hussars Lanchester, Egypt

Hosted by Francois Gousse this discussion group is dedicated to AFV's of the First World War from all countries as well as tank development during the 1920s and 1930s.

11th Hussars Lanchester, Egypt

Joined: October 7th, 2005, 1:45 pm

March 10th, 2011, 9:50 pm #1

Can anybody point me to any publication showing the Lanchester Armoured Cars of the 11th Hussars in Egypt between 1934 and 1939? The only two pictures marked 'Lanchester Armoured Car in Egypt' I could find via Google both showed Fordsons...
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: March 21st, 2004, 11:17 pm

March 12th, 2011, 1:44 am #2

I have just done a bit of searching and found the following site has some information that may be of interest to you, stating basically that 11th Hussars were using Rolls Royce a/cars. I hope this is of some use.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/austin7nut/5114390283/

Paul
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 27th, 2004, 11:44 am

March 12th, 2011, 2:33 am #3

Can anybody point me to any publication showing the Lanchester Armoured Cars of the 11th Hussars in Egypt between 1934 and 1939? The only two pictures marked 'Lanchester Armoured Car in Egypt' I could find via Google both showed Fordsons...
A photo on the top of page 11 shows two Lanchesters being unloaded from a ship at what I assume is Alexandria.
The vehicle on the dock is a Mk II while the vehicle in a sling being unloaded is a MkI according to Mr Fletcher's caption.
No date or unit is mentioned apart from the fact they are part of the Mechanisation Experimental Establishment (MEE) which might help place a date. It's been a few years since I've read the book so the relevant details may well be in the text.
What is interesting is the apparent colour schemes. More readily apparent on the Mk I. It is stated as being sand with broad bands of dark red which I wonder if is that Terracotta colour that has been mentioned before by more learned people than me?

Please feel free to contact me online if you wish me to look further into it for you.
Last edited by horra on March 12th, 2011, 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 26th, 2007, 1:14 am

March 14th, 2011, 4:09 am #4

Can anybody point me to any publication showing the Lanchester Armoured Cars of the 11th Hussars in Egypt between 1934 and 1939? The only two pictures marked 'Lanchester Armoured Car in Egypt' I could find via Google both showed Fordsons...
You may have to really dig to find a copy but Peter Upton's "The Cherrypickers" (ISBN 0 9530003 0 3) illustrates a Lanchester in what I believe may be the silver and black disruptive scheme. It is possible that it's some sort of sand and red combination as the silver looks very flat and orthochromatic film makes red appear very dark.

These didn't seem to have lasted very long in desert service compared to the Rolls Royce cars, so photos of them in service are likely to be few and far between.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 18th, 2005, 11:39 am

March 14th, 2011, 9:37 am #5

Shane/Aidrian,

General Orders in Egypt pre-war all state "Light Sand" with "Dark Sand" disruptive. No terracotta or black in these:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/me ... +-+pre-War

Cheers,
Mark
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 7th, 2005, 1:45 pm

March 14th, 2011, 2:09 pm #6

A photo on the top of page 11 shows two Lanchesters being unloaded from a ship at what I assume is Alexandria.
The vehicle on the dock is a Mk II while the vehicle in a sling being unloaded is a MkI according to Mr Fletcher's caption.
No date or unit is mentioned apart from the fact they are part of the Mechanisation Experimental Establishment (MEE) which might help place a date. It's been a few years since I've read the book so the relevant details may well be in the text.
What is interesting is the apparent colour schemes. More readily apparent on the Mk I. It is stated as being sand with broad bands of dark red which I wonder if is that Terracotta colour that has been mentioned before by more learned people than me?

Please feel free to contact me online if you wish me to look further into it for you.
That would be most embarrassing, as I recall having a copy of that book somewhere in my Library! I'll check later tonight when I get a chance.

Thank you (and the others) for pointing me in the right direction!

Mario
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 7th, 2005, 1:45 pm

March 14th, 2011, 8:47 pm #7

A photo on the top of page 11 shows two Lanchesters being unloaded from a ship at what I assume is Alexandria.
The vehicle on the dock is a Mk II while the vehicle in a sling being unloaded is a MkI according to Mr Fletcher's caption.
No date or unit is mentioned apart from the fact they are part of the Mechanisation Experimental Establishment (MEE) which might help place a date. It's been a few years since I've read the book so the relevant details may well be in the text.
What is interesting is the apparent colour schemes. More readily apparent on the Mk I. It is stated as being sand with broad bands of dark red which I wonder if is that Terracotta colour that has been mentioned before by more learned people than me?

Please feel free to contact me online if you wish me to look further into it for you.
On page 9 of that same publication is one of the Rolls Royces of the 11th Hussars is shown in the alledged silver and black camouflage. The dark band is much darker than that of the Lanchester unloaded on page 11.

On the MAFVA-page 'British Vehicle Camouflage, 1939-45' http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm) Mike Starmer and Mike Cooper relate the following:

"1935 1939 In 1936 the 11th Hussars had Rolls-Royce and Crossley armoured cars together with support trucks in Silver with gloss Black disruptive bands. In the same year 6 RTC Vickers Medium tanks were in BS.52 Pale Cream with a fairly standard disruptive pattern of BS.46 Red Oxide applied. By 1937 this pattern had changed somewhat but was the same on every tank and used the same colours. The 11th Hussars meantime had adopted the same cream/ red colours and established a fairly regular pattern on their Rolls-Royce cars. This unit utilised other colours up to 1939 but the pattern remained. By this time various other units in Egypt has also adopted disruptive painting of various styles and colours."

The Lanchesters didn't last long in the desert, being too heavy. The 11th Hussars served in Egypt & Palestine from 1934 to 1939 before being re-equipped with Morris CS9's, but according to several sources left their Lanchesters behind when they went to Egypt in 1934 to relieve the 12th Lancers, who late in 1935 rejoined them bringing 29 Lanchesters, only to leave again by July 1936. This more or less leaves a window of opportunity for desert Lanchesters in said Pale Cream / Red Oxide livery, although they might as well have been of the 12th Lancers. Either way, the desert livery of these cars sounds is interesting enough to keep digging.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 18th, 2005, 11:39 am

March 15th, 2011, 12:09 am #8

Mario,

British Army followed General Orders. As I stated below, General Orders in Egypt pre-war all state "Light Sand" with "Dark Sand" disruptive. No terracotta or black or red oxide in any of these. These date from 1936 to 1940:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/me ... +-+pre-War

Cheers,
Mark
Last edited by redironbark on March 15th, 2011, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 26th, 2007, 1:14 am

March 16th, 2011, 4:07 pm #9

Shane/Aidrian,

General Orders in Egypt pre-war all state "Light Sand" with "Dark Sand" disruptive. No terracotta or black in these:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/me ... +-+pre-War

Cheers,
Mark
The orders may say one thing, but there is photo evidence for the silver and black scheme on 1920 pattern Rolls A/Cs; it may have been a trial scheme, but it did exist and was used about the same time as the Lanchester photo I mentioned

The colour in the 1935 photo appears way to dark (even after allowing for ortho film) to be dark sand; the photo in "The Cherrypickers" also predates the 1936 scheme so referring to that is perhaps something of a red herring in this case
Last edited by Mad_Dan_Eccles on March 16th, 2011, 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: April 18th, 2005, 11:39 am

March 16th, 2011, 8:05 pm #10

Aidrian,

The photos are in B/W and not colour. There is no way to take as evidence colours from B/W photos. The two ships below are in the same light green/blue camouflage. One shows up black and the other light. As you can see guessing colours based on tones is not valid. True, the photos pre-date the 1936 order by one year, however I would say Dark Sand/Light Sand are considerably more likely than colours based on tones in B/W photos.

Cheers,
Mark



Last edited by redironbark on March 17th, 2011, 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share