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tonic
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May 6th, 2018, 8:03 pm #1

One reason Solidus wanted to kill Raiden was to sever their connected past. He says it's time they were both free. But he then says he has other reasons for killing Raiden. Check it out here 4 minutes 15 secs in:

https://youtu.be/mhcKnSgGjZI

"The clues to the Patriots inside GW have been erased, but there are other traces...Inside YOU. Note that he wasn't suggesting that Raiden would be able to verbally give him this information. It was inside Raiden. In fact when Solidus was strangling Raiden after the Ray fight he wasn't expecting any info from Raiden. He states, "it's not him I want the answers from". Raiden is a lacky for the Patriots who knows nothing of interest to Solidus.

"The information is being carried by the nanomachines in your cerebral cortex, and through the neural network they form". Neural network??? I googled neural network and this is the definition I found:

https://www.google.com/search?q=neural+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

Hmm.."a computer system modeled on the human brain and nervous system".

So Raiden has a parallel system of control (neural network) operating in his real brain. It was not just the stimulation of the bones in his ear manipulating his action from an inmaginary Colonel. Interesting...could that be what the fission mailed screen was trying to signify? Two parallel brain functions. When Raiden dies during fission mailed screen he was somehow still living. What's even more interesting is that Solidus believes he can access this neural network even with Raiden dead. Dude was a cyborg. :cool:


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Khun
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May 7th, 2018, 9:08 am #2

If Raiden was already a cyborg during MGS2, then his body wouldn't have been through modifications before the events of MGS4. His blood is red, not white.
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tonic
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May 7th, 2018, 6:33 pm #3

Khun wrote:If Raiden was already a cyborg during MGS2, then his body wouldn't have been through modifications before the events of MGS4. His blood is red, not white.
I just gave you an example of the modifications. He a had a parallel computer brain operating is his own cerebrum. Is that not a significant modification. You speak of his blood being red. The metal gear rays blood in MGS2 was red too and just as artificial as Raiden's. Raiden's artificial blood was nano infused, the Rays blood was nano paste. The color of the blood has no significance as to whether Raiden was a cyborg or not. The fact that his blood is artificial and nano-infused to the point where it created its own neural network in his head makes him a cyborg.

In fact his body likely had to go through modification before MGS4 because they had to remove the nano-infestation it had with all that fake blood.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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May 7th, 2018, 6:49 pm #4

Khun wrote:If Raiden was already a cyborg during MGS2, then his body wouldn't have been through modifications before the events of MGS4. His blood is red, not white.
To be fair, it was established in a Codec conversation that the Patriots replaced Raiden's blood with a nanotech recovery paste before the events of the mission (of course, why it was colored red instead of white like in MGS4 and to a lesser extent the Civilian Cyborg blood in MGR [this is based on a Codec call with Doktor], I have no idea).

But I do agree, I doubt Raiden really qualifies as a cyborg during MGS2, even with the nanopaste and whole nanomachine cortex thing that essentially had Raiden act as a backup system for GW. It's like saying Solid Snake in MGS1 is a cyborg just because he's got nanomachines from Shadow Moses that, among other things, remotely locked him from using his weapons, administered various adrenaline, nutrients, sugars, nootropics, and benzedrines, recharged his Codec battery, stimulating muscle fibers remotely via ciliary motility, and of course acting as a walking bioweapon.
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May 7th, 2018, 9:39 pm #5

Thanks, tonic and Weedle, I totally forgot about that because in MGS2 (at least) he acts like, well, a human being with no enhanced capabilities (no different than Big Boss or Solid Snake) which is why I don't see him as a "cyborg" (at least in this game).

This is how I understand Solidus' quote: when you think about it, Raiden is the first individual (chronologically) who has been sent directly by The Patriots' AIs (no proxies). Furthermore, he was the only one who had the privilege to talk to them. It makes him an unique individual given that he might have valuable informations on them "inside" him.
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Weedle_McHairybug
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May 8th, 2018, 12:17 am #6

Khun wrote:Thanks, tonic and Weedle, I totally forgot about that because in MGS2 (at least) he acts like, well, a human being with no enhanced capabilities (no different than Big Boss or Solid Snake) which is why I don't see him as a "cyborg" (at least in this game).

This is how I understand Solidus' quote: when you think about it, Raiden is the first individual (chronologically) who has been sent directly by The Patriots' AIs (no proxies). Furthermore, he was the only one who had the privilege to talk to them. It makes him an unique individual given that he might have valuable informations on them "inside" him.
In all fairness, it was one of those calls that you really needed to go out of your way to find and thus was easily missed by many players, so I don't blame you for forgetting that particular call.

And yeah, since he's essentially a backup conduit for GW thanks to that nanomachine cortex, which is also implied (confirmed in the script) to have really affected Raiden's memories big time, at least for the most part (Solidus said "High-concentration of cerebral implants... Have they altered your memory, too?"), it's pretty clear the Patriots had directly sent him (well, more or less, since Raiden wasn't even aware of who they were due to thinking he was sent by Colonel Campbell).
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tonic
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May 8th, 2018, 3:53 am #7

Weedle_McHairybug wrote: ...of course, why it was colored red instead of white like in MGS4 and to a lesser extent the Civilian Cyborg blood in MGR [this is based on a Codec call with Doktor], I have no idea).
Likely to make Raiden seem normal. Throughout the game they were slow leaking these details about Raiden which should have given us pause. This was one of them.
Weedle_McHairybug wrote:But I do agree, I doubt Raiden really qualifies as a cyborg during MGS2, even with the nanopaste and whole nanomachine cortex thing that essentially had Raiden act as a backup system for GW. It's like saying Solid Snake in MGS1 is a cyborg just because he's got nanomachines from Shadow Moses that, among other things, remotely locked him from using his weapons, administered various adrenaline, nutrients, sugars, nootropics, and benzedrines, recharged his Codec battery, stimulating muscle fibers remotely via ciliary motility, and of course acting as a walking bioweapon.
I guess technically you could say Snake was a cyborg on some level but the nanomachines impact on Snake was more physical and medicinal. It didn't directly impact his decision making. For example he likely could still decide to pull the trigger in the nuclear Bldg. It's just that the gun was locked in that area.

This is the difference and why I would say Raiden was more a "cyborg" in the common interpretation of the word. The neural network, the AI protocol controlled his decision making to the point where he did what they wanted him to do. How did they do it:

The S3 is a protocol for controlling human will and consciousness. (Altered his memory)
We think for you. ( Decided what his goals need to be)
Our goal is not to censor content, but to create context (Limited his choices. Without choice their is no free will)


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Weedle_McHairybug
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May 8th, 2018, 3:39 pm #8

tonic wrote:
Weedle_McHairybug wrote: ...of course, why it was colored red instead of white like in MGS4 and to a lesser extent the Civilian Cyborg blood in MGR [this is based on a Codec call with Doktor], I have no idea).
Likely to make Raiden seem normal. Throughout the game they were slow leaking these details about Raiden which should have given us pause. This was one of them.
Weedle_McHairybug wrote:But I do agree, I doubt Raiden really qualifies as a cyborg during MGS2, even with the nanopaste and whole nanomachine cortex thing that essentially had Raiden act as a backup system for GW. It's like saying Solid Snake in MGS1 is a cyborg just because he's got nanomachines from Shadow Moses that, among other things, remotely locked him from using his weapons, administered various adrenaline, nutrients, sugars, nootropics, and benzedrines, recharged his Codec battery, stimulating muscle fibers remotely via ciliary motility, and of course acting as a walking bioweapon.
I guess technically you could say Snake was a cyborg on some level but the nanomachines impact on Snake was more physical and medicinal. It didn't directly impact his decision making. For example he likely could still decide to pull the trigger in the nuclear Bldg. It's just that the gun was locked in that area.

This is the difference and why I would say Raiden was more a "cyborg" in the common interpretation of the word. The neural network, the AI protocol controlled his decision making to the point where he did what they wanted him to do. How did they do it:

The S3 is a protocol for controlling human will and consciousness. (Altered his memory)
We think for you. ( Decided what his goals need to be)
Our goal is not to censor content, but to create context (Limited his choices. Without choice their is no free will)

I'm not so sure about it not impacting his decision making. The way Naomi talked when that came up made it seem as though it DID lock his ability to decide on using a gun.
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tonic
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May 10th, 2018, 4:13 am #9

Weedle_McHairybug wrote: I'm not so sure about it not impacting his decision making. The way Naomi talked when that came up made it seem as though it DID lock his ability to decide on using a gun.
No she said programme the nanomachines that he won't be able to. Not that he couldn't chose to.

https://youtu.be/2x9DH-X_Q58

In fact even after what Naomi said, Campbell was stressing to Snake that he should not use his weapon in that building.

What I find very interesting is that Solidus felt he had to kill Raiden to access the neural network in his cerebral cortex. If that was the case how did Big Mama access it to find the location of Big Boss. Note that she never said that Raiden told her the location of Big Boss. She says, "it was when I met him that I found the location of Big Boss". How? "It was in the data he obtained from GW". Is this why Raiden's body had to be taken apart to access the nanomachine neural network. Is that why they had to remove the bottom half of his jaw to get access to the cerebral implants.
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ballisticola
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May 10th, 2018, 6:19 pm #10

wrote:Is this why Raiden's body had to be taken apart to access the nanomachine neural network. Is that why they had to remove the bottom half of his jaw to get access to the cerebral implants.
So they removed every part of his body, when they could have just cut part of his skull off?
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