“Upper Macedonia” Not in the Pipeline

“Upper Macedonia” Not in the Pipeline


May 21st, 2008, 7:38 am #1

“Upper Macedonia” Not in the Pipeline
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Prime Minister Gruevski is not considering the name 'Upper Macedonia'20 May 2008 Skopje _ Macedonia’s government has denied Greek speculation that the country’s Premier is considering the name “Upper Macedonia” to settle the row with Athens.

Greek daily Eleftheros Typos on Monday argued that Macedonia’s Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski might be ready to accept the name shortly after the June 1 parliamentary elections in the country.

“Gruevski’s position is well known. There are no dilemmas. Let those who think that the issue is easily solvable go ahead and solve it,” government spokesman Ivica Bocevski told local daily Spic.

Meanwhile in what appeared to be a message to Skopje, the Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis was cited on Monday as saying that “good neighbourly relations and concessions” in the name row are Macedonia’s ticket to the European Union ad NATO.

In April, Athens vetoed Skopje’s invitation to join NATO demanding the country change its name first. Athens argues Skopje’s use of the name “Republic of Macedonia” might lead it to make territorial claims over Greece’s northern province of the same name.

NATO has said Macedonia would receive its invitation as soon as the two countries reach a deal.

The Greek leader’s statement came three days before the South East European Co-operation Pact summit in Bulgaria where both Macedonia’s President Branko Crvenkovski and Karamanlis are due to attend.

Media in both countries speculate that that the two leaders might hold a meeting.

Macedonian media report that Crvenkovski is willing to meet Karamanlis if such meeting is initiated by Athens.

The United Nations-sponsored name talks between Athens and Skopje have been ongoing for 15 years. Due to the Macedonia’s snap election the talks have been temporarily held up.


Tuesday, May 20, 2008
'good neighbourly relations and concessions'

The Greek government would not know what those things are if they were punched in the face by good neighbourly relations and concessions.

to dara
Tuesday, May 20, 2008

Your ignorance is astounding. The Greek government has made all the concessions regarding the name dispute.

Fact of the matter is both sides believe that the name Macedonia is important to them so they need to share it. Greece is willing to accept a composite name with a geographic qualifier.

If anything Fyrom is the side that wouldnt know anything about concessions!


Tuesday, May 20, 2008
All your postings are one-sided in favour of the ultra-nationalist slavic population of macedonia.What about the 40% of the population-the Albanians? Do they have rights in this country?Have the Ohrid agreements being implemented?

These are the bread and butter issues which are close to heart for the albanians and not the slavic pseudo-historic nationalism.Furthermore,if you really want to enlighten yourself look

at wikepedia and you'll see the present lands in macedonia were albanian lands of Dardania and Illyria.The albanians are the rightfull owners of these lands.

Upper Volta or Nova Scotia
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
No concession on the name means no invitation for NATO or a course leading to the EU.

This issue, thankfully, is now more about the FYRoMacedonia's future and place in the world than about Greece, or Bulgaria, for that matter.

Greece enjoys good-neighbourly relations with every country in the wider region, increasingly so even with perennial rival Turkey.

FYROM does not.

Dara, I would humbly suggest that you shouldn't egg them on with "anti-Greek" quips, the leadership of the Slav Macedonian majority in FYROM is now called on to take historic decisions, decisions that will be crucial for that ethnos' future, and will hopefully reverse some of the tragic mistakes of the past 100 or so years:

Failed Iliden uprising

Are we "Macedonians or Bulgarians"? (See Goce Delchev's letter to his friend Koylo)

No strategic leadership or 'world view' during the 1912 & 1913 Balkan Wars

Introversion during the mid-war period, especially in the cultural sense

Picking the wrong sides in WWII (this was a 'biggie')

Fighting with the communists against the government in Greece (1946-49)

Embracing the communist Tito with "hearts, minds & souls", at least up until his death

Failing to repudiate the bankrupt 19th century irredentist "ideology" of "Macedonianism" after its good fortune of seceding without bloodshed from former Yugoslavia in 1991

Ignoring and relegating the Albanians in the new country to "second-class citizens" statis, a human rights disaster that led to an armed insurrection.

This is not about Greece, my friends, it's all about the "state of the second part".

au revoir

Sad arrogance from Yunanistanians
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
To David.

You have the typical arrogant attitude that many from Yunanistan have.


Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Ringo - Suffice to say this.

After the Greek government's outrageous actions in the early and mid 1990s they get nothing out of me.

One can not help but note that Greek conderns about ex-communists, WW2 and so on did not seem to stop them giving weapons, support and NATO secrets to Slobodan Milisevic.

I will let you dwell on the wisdom of Greek policy towards Tito in the 1940s and how far that is responsible for what we see now.

Good neighbourly relations? How about Turkey? Hypocricy on stilts.

Arrogance breeds failed boxers-cum-balkan politicians
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
To Vasil,

Confusing defence of one's position with whatever arguments (good, bad or ugly) for arrogance is arrogance.

As per "typical arrogant attitude" by Yunanistanis, please publish the results of your study.


Btw, does anyone know how the place-name Yunanistan comes from, etymologically, of course?

Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Macedonia, will not change our identity till Greece changes their constitutional name to former Ottoman Republic.Greeks are living in their dreams,the myth of dictating to others how to behave or identifie themselfs.Greece never identified Northern Greece as Macedonia till 1989.Greece get over it Republic of Macedonia will remain Macedonia.

to Vasil
Tuesday, May 20, 2008

I merely said that the name 'Macedonia' needs to be shared!!!!! how is that arrogant!? Its the truth.

By the way, nice effect with the use of 'Yunanistan'. Should have gone all out and used a personal favourite 'FTROG' - an acronym used by people that were actually under Turkish occupation for 100 years more than the the Greeks that they try to degrade by using the term.

That sort of lends to your use of 'Yunanistan'. Mate you are as Turkish as I, probably more so.

A+ for effort.

Milosevic is dead, Gruevski isn't
Tuesday, May 20, 2008

The position over which you are clinging to -- Greece helped Milosevic in early and mid 90', ergo it broke NATO rules, ergo it is not a member in good standing, or it is hypocritical -- simply will not in any way help the current Skopje government.

I really have not even seen it brought up in any current press articles in mainstream media regarding the "name dispute".

You may be completely right, but yours is still an "off-the-centre" view of the very current dispute.

Nor will it dent, even in the slightest, the historical review of modern Greece's standing and actions, which I have posted in another article on this site, since 1830.

Sorry, I won't touch the "Greece-Turkey" thing on this site, that relationship is far too complex and significant. I'd be glad to discuss it though in another discussion board.

Tuesday, May 20, 2008
No - you partly misunderstand me. My view certainly is that Greece has no right to lecture anyone on unity because of the 1990s, that much is true (and every credit to you for taking the point).

But look at your list. I think we can safely say that Italy and Germany were on the other side in WW2 yet that does not seem to be a problem for Greece right now in EU/NATO terms. Even if it is a 'biggie.'

Introversion during the mid-war period - not altogether unique across Europe or indeed the world was it?

Country with no strategic leadership - applies to most countries. Britain hasn't had that since about 1832!

'Failing to repudiate the bankrupt 19th century irredentist "ideology" of "Macedonianism" ' That was tackled in the first amendment to the Macedonian constitution, which in another example of bad faith, the Greek Government demanded but doesn't like.

Given the human rights concerns about minorties throughout Europe you can hardly say that Macedonia is unique there.

You talk about concerns about ex-commuists. Those concerns don't seem to bother Greece elsewhere in its foreign relations. Or, yes in its alliance with Milosevic's Serbia.

The position I am taking is that your list and the principles it rests on could be applied in one way or another to Greek relations with any number of other countries only without the paranoia or hysteria that seems to afflict Greeks when it comes to Macedonia.

Many countries arond the world share similar issues without the brat attitude, bad faith or hysteria that Greece displays. Greece is not a special case - simple as that. That is my position.

To avoid doubt, this is not to say that successive Macedonian governments have covered themselves in glory. They certainly have not.

You are also quite right about Turkey and it probably was a bit reckless of me to bring that in.

Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Consessions? I'm sure you mean Greece has put in place sanctions?

The fact is moja Makedonija is better off without NATO and EU!

Cuvajte imeto Makedonija!

Tuesday, May 20, 2008
All the problems can be solved if SEE states can give the people the right to freedom of expression. I dont see it happening now in Greece. Freedom of expression are one of the cornerstones of American society. Its what cements long term ethnic stabiliy and breaks away prejudice. The EU needs to press the EU member states in human rights issues if the Union ever wants to leave the last millenium behind. PERIOD.

Cuvajte imeto Makedonija! -- translation please...
Tuesday, May 20, 2008

Again, I believe we're saying a lot of the same things, in broad terms, about the same issue, Greece-FYRoMaceodia relations.

I'll just point to one of my points and your counter-point from a previous post. Of course, Italy and Germany were on the 'wrong' side during the war, but, a galaxy of change, decisions, maturity and colossal socio-political transformations occurred in those two countries, as well as many others on the European continent since 1945.

The new country that arose in 1991 has not, entirely, experienced such a transformation in terms of political structure, civil society, diversity etc. As such, lack of maturity may contribute to their current stubborness.

I know, you're thinking "Greek paranoia" as the anti-thesis. Well then, wouldn't it behoove the folks holding the top jobs in Skopje to try and lessen such paranoia?

Don't maps, refugee children associations demanding "reparations" and a lot of misplaced recent comments act as a stimulus to real of feigned paranoia by the Greek state?

The previous governments in FYROM, from 1995 to 2006, enjoyed a dramatically improved relationship with Athens. This changed with Gruevski & Co., unfortunately, for all concerned.

greece peace
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
dear all

i think we should forget about all these stuff... the same old misery about fyroms name...

it will change don t worry...

summer is coming and greece is going to be again top spot!!

istead of fighting why don't you guys leave your cloudy countries and come to sunny greece for a change?

we are going to have coffees next to the sea, enjoy the wonderful women, and perhaps later drink some divine wine in a taverna!

discuss with the greeks and feel their warmth, openness and relaxed manners.

...and after you feel fresh again you can go back to your military lifestyles and world war 2 mentalities.


Tuesday, May 20, 2008
To the Albanian sympathizer. If you are in Macedonia you are a Macedonian; no other ethnicity exists. Oh wait, the Hellenistic provinces only do that. My bad. Macedonia actually recognizes its minorities. Anyhow, to anyone that thinks "Greece" has made any concessions, open your eyes and get your head out of your gaz. Macedonia has changed it's name once already and it's flag. Another name change? Anyone with any sense knows that it is obscene to suggest such a thing. Macedonians want nothing to do with the Hellenistic provinces past having a good neighborly relationship. Macedonia will be Macedonia because it is Macedonia and Greece will continue to force an identity on people that does not exist.

Media Markt
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
on a lighter note, a very, very positive point in this piece lies in the upper right-hand corner of the photo showing the ex-pugilist PM of FYROM.

Take a look, she's the redhead with the Jackie O. sunglasses.

Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Ringo – Broadly, yes. I do not disagree with large parts of what you say, I think much is wise comment.

‘Well then, wouldn't it behoove the folks holding the top jobs in Skopje to try and lessen such paranoia?’

True enough and I don’t disagree, the Macedonian government has been less than wise, but that has to work both ways. The continued bad faith coming out of Athens is not helping. If you sign up to an international agreement on anything, you should stick to that, even if it means things you don’t like. That is modern government. Those in Macedonia who (I would like to believe wrongly) hold that the Greeks are just looking to prolong this don’t exactly have to look hard for reasons to hold that belief.

‘Don't maps, refugee children associations demanding "reparations" and a lot of misplaced recent comments act as a stimulus to real of [should that read ‘or?] feigned paranoia’

Yes, but there is a realistic reaction and taking that to reckless excess. The maps are done by people who are not important, who are subject to the Macedonian constitution and are largely hot-heads. The ‘reparations’ thing is common in most countries – especially in the US. Greece is not a special or unique case, it can not be said often enough!

What is the difference between that and the 32 county maps the Irish put out? What about the big map of the British Empire in the British Museum? Should India start to get paranoid? What about the Greater Albania maps that litter the internet and include a large part of Northern Greece? What about the claims for restoration of property from Albanian groups?

None of that seems to provoke the same paranoia. How much is real and how much feigned? I struggle to believe that there is a Greek alive who believes that Macedonia is going to invade, but then I suspect that really territory is not the issue here. The world at large is quite capable of distinguishing the two countries – both need more confidence in themselves.

What particularly galls me, of course is that in the grand regional scheme of things the name issue is really a pretty small issue.

Anyway – I’m off to the opera. Idomeneo.

Tuesday, May 20, 2008

Tuesday, May 20, 2008

Stop being so thick in the head.

Stop skewing numbers to suit your point of view, like the Albanian minority percentage which is nowhere near 40% but it is 25% which also is a slightly skewed figure to your advantage.

Stop living in the past and try to live today, in a country that you share with people who are called Macedonians. Why not thrive with peace rather than, as you clearly show your intent, occupy a part of Macedonia. Are the rights you enjoy at the moment not enough. Are you not aware that not many minorities in the world enjoy the rights you do have in this country. Ask your Albanian brothers and sisters in Greece for example or other neighboring countries and even EU countries and ask if the freedoms you enjoy are given to them.

Stop trying to spread war when we (Macedonians) want to spread peace.

Big Mac Attack
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
To BT:

"Ask your Albanian brothers and sisters in Greece for example or other neighboring countries and even EU countries and ask if the freedoms you enjoy are given to them."

Most of the hard-working Albanians in Greece are Albanian citizens with permanent or temporary work and residency permits.

The term, in Germany, for instance, is guest workers.

This is very different, as wide as Lake Ohrid, from the autochthonous and sizable Albanian minority that lives in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, to use the name listed in the NATO final communique at the Bucharest Summit.

Autochthonous, btw, is a word would have been understood by Aristotle and his students, Kutlessshhhh is not.

International practice and standards dictate, quite clearly, what an official minority constitutes. For instance, there are some 30,000 Pakistani nationals working and residing in Greece, so does Greece host a Pakistani minority?

The answer is no.

FYRoM hosts an official Albanian minority, however, that requires specific linguistic, ethnic, political and civil rights.

Don't confuse, as many of your Mak diaspora brothers in Canada and Australia do, the difference between **human** rights -- i.e. the right to a fair trial, due process etc. --- and political/civil rights -- the right to equally vote or stand in elections, for instance.

So, are the Albanians in your country "Macedonians"? or are they "Albanian Macedonians".

If someone that considers himself an ethnic Greek is a citizen of FYROM is he a "Greek Macedonian"?

Can one be an "Aegean Macedonian"?

My proposal: Everyone that wants to can be a Big Mac.

Tuesday, May 20, 2008
The Fyromians indicate that that are good people and that they recognized the Albanian minority....for those who do not know, FYROM only recognized the Albanians because they were at brink of civil war...Albanians had no rights in FYROM...they improved but are still not the same. For example, more percenatge of Albanians are unemployed in FYROM and the FYROMinians...they do not hire Albanians. Therefore, they recognized them only because they were facing civil war they would have lost part of their country to the Albaninas...therefore, recognize them and we can still keep the land. Your FYROManians are the best in PROPOGANDA.
The Greek Boy

ahmed just for ahmed
Tuesday, May 20, 2008




and dont count kosovo for the 40 % count only MACEDONIA AND THATS BERELY 25 %


To Peter and others like him!
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
Learn the facts: Macedonia and Thrace have always been named so by the Greek state.

Only the Ministry changed its name from Ministry of Northern Greece to the Ministry of Macedonia and Thrace.

Just because you read it somewhere it does not make it true.

And for your information, the "Slavic" nose of Cleopatra does not make her an ancestor of Slavomacedonians.

Further more, I reject the term Upper Macedonia, only Slavomacedonia or Vardarmacedonia or something like that will do.

Greece has the luxury of waiting until you northerners get off whatever you are smoking and get back to reality.

Your ethnicity and language for those of you who are not Albanians, Turks, Serbs, Greeks etc. is Slavomacedonian a variant dialect/culture of Bulgarian largely created during the Tito era.