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Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: May 31st, 2008, 9:01 am

May 4th, 2011, 9:25 am #411

Bear in mind that Zhuge Liang had a difficult job. The alliance was probably going to happen but he couldn't afford to sell Liu Bei short and yet didn't have a strong to play with. So he tried to emphasise Liu Bei was awesome and pure as snow to such an extent that it was being a tad insulting to Sun Quan. Who naturally exploded.
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SnowMan
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: January 20th, 2008, 5:00 am

May 11th, 2011, 8:27 am #412

Did Zhuge Liang have a son or sons? Who was he or them and what became of him or them? I can't help but think that DW would be cooler if they added a son of Zhuge Liang the way they did with Sima Yi.

And can I get the Zhuge male family tree, starting with Zhuge Liang's generation all the way up until the end of the Three Kingdoms? And maybe, if it's not asking too much, telling me who served where in history and in the novel? They're spread across all three kingdoms, but that's where my knowledge ends.
"The path of the warrior is not an individual one. He is only one portion of the greater purpose."

"He must conquer his ego. He must have strength. His duty is to guide events towards the stated goal."

[+] Spoiler
[DW3] 99999 MAX, 4th Weapon
[DW4] 99999 MAX, Lvl. 10 Weapon
[DW5] 60000 MAX, 4th Weapon
[DW6] Lvl. 50, Finished Skill Tree
[DW7/XL] Stat MAX (both games), Finished Skill Set, Top Title, Devotion Line
[DW8/XL] Lvl. 105, 5th Weapon, All Ambition Mode Lines Unlocked
[WO1] Lvl. 99, All Abilities, Prof. MAX, 4th Weapon, Personal Item
[WO2] Lvl. 99, All Abilities, 4th Weapon
[WO3/U] Lvl. 100, Prof. S, 4th Weapon, All Special Relationships MAXed
[+] Spoiler
Wei: Cao Hong, Man Chong
Wu: Cheng Pu, Xu Sheng, Wu Guotai
Shu: Liao Hua, Wang Ping, Jian Yong
Jin: Wen Qin, Guanqiu Jian
Other: Yuan Shu, Guo Si, Li Jue, Gao Shun, Dailai Dongzhou, Zhang Bao, Zhang Liang
SW: Matsu Maeda, Saburo Hōjō, Yoshikage Asakura, Ujimasa Hōjō, Ujikuni Hōjō
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Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: May 31st, 2008, 9:01 am

May 11th, 2011, 9:26 am #413

1) Zhuge Liang's had an adopted and a real son. Liang had difficulty at first so adopted Jin's second son Zhuge Qiao. Qiao was famed in his own time and was noted for being a good disposition but died in 228. His only son Zhuge Pan also died early though grandson Xiang was taken by Wei to Hedong.

The natural son Zhuge Zhan was still a child when Liang died. A clever and adorable child but one whose early maturity concerned his father. As an adult, married a Princess and rose through the ranks to become one of Shu's senior civil officers when Chen Zhi died. Noted for being a skilled painter, having a fine memory and being skilled at calligraphy, he got credited by the people (due to his father's popularity) with anything popular Shu did. In reality, aided and protected Huang Hao. Sent to face Deng Ai with the Cheng Du defence forces, rejected Huang Chong's advice to advance quickly but waited on flat terrain. Won first battle against Deng Ai's subordinates and rejected an offer of becoming King, was massacred in the second battle. Eldest son Shang died with him, second son Jing was moved to Hedong.

Naturally the novel turns Zhuge Zhan into an opponent of Huang Hao who performs brilliantly against Deng Ai before losing.

DW probably hasn't added Zhuge Zhan or Qiao becuase they have two battles and not very impressive career's between them. Sima Yi's sons set up an empire.

2) Zhuge family tree
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Skode
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
Joined: January 30th, 2008, 11:19 pm

May 11th, 2011, 2:35 pm #414

Is it true that Dian Wei and his twin halberds is the only case of an officer historically being credited to having used a specific weapon?

If so where did the assosiation of Guan Yu with the dragon blade and Lui Bei with twin swords etc originate from - novel?
My wish list for DW10

Wei - Cao Hong, Cao Zhen, Cheng Yu, Niu Jin, Lady Bian
Shu - Liao Hua, Wang Ping, Zhang Yi, Jian Yong, Ma Yunlu
Wu (early) - Pan Zhang, Jiang Qi, Zhang Zhao, Zhuge Ke, Lady Wu
Wu (Late) - Lu Kang, Sun Luban, Sun Hao, Shi Ji, Zang Ti
Jin - Du Yu, Yang Hu, Chen Tai, Wang Jun, Sima Yan
Others - Mi Heng, Guo Si, Li Jue, Gongsun Zan
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Pride
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: August 24th, 2007, 6:49 pm

May 11th, 2011, 3:11 pm #415

Skode wrote:Is it true that Dian Wei and his twin halberds is the only case of an officer historically being credited to having used a specific weapon?

If so where did the assosiation of Guan Yu with the dragon blade and Lui Bei with twin swords etc originate from - novel?
Xu Huang did use his gaint axe. Gan Ning used a chain once and climbed up a city. Dian Wei used his two halberds& a long sword usually but in Wan he just used a gaint axe. That's all I know, Taishi Ci used a bow once and he had a small lance which Sun Ce stole...

The Black Dragon, which Guan Yu used, was a nagatina and it wasn't invented back then. Not sure where did they get that idea, maybe it has something to do with Guan Yu being worshipped.
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Xiuzhao
Tiger General
Xiuzhao
Tiger General
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 1:43 pm

May 11th, 2011, 4:15 pm #416

Nasser wrote:Xu Huang did use his gaint axe.
Do you have a source for this, other than the comprehensive bio on KMA? Because those bios are not always reliable, and there's no mention of it in his SGZ.
Nasser wrote:The Black Dragon, which Guan Yu used, was a nagatina and it wasn't invented back then. Not sure where did they get that idea, maybe it has something to do with Guan Yu being worshipped.
You mean Naginata; and technically it was more a Guan Dao as the Naginata is a Japanese weapon.

To quote the very knowledgeable Yue Fei from Koei.com:
"Guan Yu would have used a spear, or a Ji (essentially a spear with another cross blade. Kind of looks like an upper case "L"). The Guan Dao did not appear as a weapon until the Song dynasty. Luo Guanzhong did not write until the Yuan dynasty, and by that time the Guan Dao was an extremely common weapon.

The main reason why the Guan Dao is described as being invented/used by Guan Yu, is the simple fact in Chinese invention process. Whenever something new has been invented, it's not said to be new because the "old guard" would never like it on the basis that it's new. So instead they say that an old invention by someone famous was re-discovered."
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Pride
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: August 24th, 2007, 6:49 pm

May 11th, 2011, 4:36 pm #417

Hmm my bad, I got it mixed up, it's indeed another novel weapon.

And nice info about the weapons/inventions btw, thanks!
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Bamboo
Tiger General
Bamboo
Tiger General
Joined: September 1st, 2008, 2:41 pm

May 12th, 2011, 7:23 pm #418

Sun Quan is credited as rescuing one of his subordinates during a hunt with a halberd. Dong Zhuo once "pulled out" and threw a short lance at Lu Bu.


Check out my write-up of Lu Bu!

CHARACTER WISHLIST (not including late era):
WEI: Cao Xiu, Yu Jin, Man Chong
SHU: Liu Feng, Meng Da
WU: Lady Wu
OTHER: Li Jue, Yuan Shang
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SnowMan
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: January 20th, 2008, 5:00 am

May 13th, 2011, 6:16 am #419

Thanks again Dongzhou.

Can you tell me about Zhuge Liang's brothers, Jun and Jin? What did they do, and how was their relationship with Liang? Jin was in Wu, and Jun stayed in Shu, right?
"The path of the warrior is not an individual one. He is only one portion of the greater purpose."

"He must conquer his ego. He must have strength. His duty is to guide events towards the stated goal."

[+] Spoiler
[DW3] 99999 MAX, 4th Weapon
[DW4] 99999 MAX, Lvl. 10 Weapon
[DW5] 60000 MAX, 4th Weapon
[DW6] Lvl. 50, Finished Skill Tree
[DW7/XL] Stat MAX (both games), Finished Skill Set, Top Title, Devotion Line
[DW8/XL] Lvl. 105, 5th Weapon, All Ambition Mode Lines Unlocked
[WO1] Lvl. 99, All Abilities, Prof. MAX, 4th Weapon, Personal Item
[WO2] Lvl. 99, All Abilities, 4th Weapon
[WO3/U] Lvl. 100, Prof. S, 4th Weapon, All Special Relationships MAXed
[+] Spoiler
Wei: Cao Hong, Man Chong
Wu: Cheng Pu, Xu Sheng, Wu Guotai
Shu: Liao Hua, Wang Ping, Jian Yong
Jin: Wen Qin, Guanqiu Jian
Other: Yuan Shu, Guo Si, Li Jue, Gao Shun, Dailai Dongzhou, Zhang Bao, Zhang Liang
SW: Matsu Maeda, Saburo Hōjō, Yoshikage Asakura, Ujimasa Hōjō, Ujikuni Hōjō
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Xiuzhao
Tiger General
Xiuzhao
Tiger General
Joined: July 30th, 2010, 1:43 pm

May 13th, 2011, 12:11 pm #420

Zhuge Jun was the third son of Zhuge Gui and Zhuge Liang's younger brother. After the death of Zhuge Gui, Zhuge Liang departed for Yuzhang and Zhuge Jun accompanied him. Zhuge Jun followed Zhuge Liang into service with Liu Bei and became a Colonel. - From Rafe de Crespigny via KMA

Zhuge Jin I know less about, only that he served Wu as you said; and served it before his younger brothers decided to enter service with Liu Bei. He was also apparently highly trusted by Sun Quan. He lived to a ripe old age of 67 or there abouts. I'm not sure how much of his SGYY bio can be trusted so I'll just leave it there.
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