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The What If Thread

Hero of Chaos
Emperor's Retainer
Hero of Chaos
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: November 11th, 2007, 11:40 am

August 14th, 2009, 8:40 am #1

Hm,I saw that there is no such topic yet. So I'll open it.

Post a few scenarios,what could have happened if something happened. Others may of course answer those questions. I'll start.

1. What if Guo Jia lived longer? Could he have turned tables at Chi Bi?
2. What if Sun Ce wasn't assassinated? Could he have advanced into Zhongyuan?
3. What if Xiahou Yuan succesfully defended Hanzhong against Liu Bei?
4. What if Cao Ang wasn't killed? Could he have been even a better ruler than Cao Pi?

Feel free to answer those questions and make some yourself. ^_^

(I hope it doesn't belong into the Q&A topic... :/ )
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Pride
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: August 24th, 2007, 6:49 pm

August 14th, 2009, 9:48 am #2

Cool topic

1- I don't Gou Jia will do much there, he's highly overrated historically as most of his accamplishments are those of Xun Yu.

2- Sun Ce was a brilliant commander, I think he might have done alot if he lived and Cao Cao would have some hard time getting him under control. I can see him advancing into Jing and the Liu Biao territories actually.

3 - I don't think much will change since it's a defensive battle? Liu Bie might attack again or I dunno, it just won't change much.

4- Nice question, I think he's better than Cao Pi and I think he's more Cao Caoish lol, he might have the needed devotion and wisedom to be a better ruler than Pi but I'm not sure if he'll be great himself.
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Kiheiji
Commander
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:20 am

August 14th, 2009, 1:15 pm #3

Okay.

1. What if Korea was never taken by Gongsun Du?
2. What if Ma Chao slayed Cao Cao at Tong Gate?
3. What if Cao Cao took Xuzhou from Tao Qian?
4. What if Yuan Shao won at Guan Du?
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Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: May 31st, 2008, 9:01 am

August 14th, 2009, 9:20 pm #4

[quote=Lord_Cao_Cao]Hm,I saw that there is no such topic yet. So I'll open it.

Post a few scenarios,what could have happened if something happened. Others may of course answer those questions. I'll start.

1. What if Guo Jia lived longer? Could he have turned tables at Chi Bi?
2. What if Sun Ce wasn't assassinated? Could he have advanced into Zhongyuan?
3. What if Xiahou Yuan succesfully defended Hanzhong against Liu Bei?
4. What if Cao Ang wasn't killed? Could he have been even a better ruler than Cao Pi?

Feel free to answer those questions and make some yourself. ^_^

(I hope it doesn't belong into the Q&A topic... :/ )[/quote]1) Cao Cao's lament was Jia could have persuaded him not to pursue that far and enter into the campaign. Jia Xu had given similar advice but Guo Jia knew Cao Cao's buttons, which rose him above his otherwise good but not great talents. Big if as to whether Jia would have opposed Chi Bi campaign though

2) He would probably have attacked Cheng Deng then attacked Liu Biao, eventually conquering Jing then fighting the winner of Guan Du. Very well a possibility he would unite the land

3) Shu dies soon after, everything hinges on them taking Hanzhong and without it, Wei can raid into Yi province with ease.

4) We know nothing of him so how can we say? Cao Pi understood internal politics and was a very good administrator who gave important reforms, we have no idea if Ang could have matched that

[quote=]2. What if Ma Chao slayed Cao Cao at Tong Gate?
3. What if Cao Cao took Xuzhou from Tao Qian?
4. What if Yuan Shao won at Guan Du?[/quote]

the army in the west would be demoralized, Cao Pi accepts yet another treaty offer as he secures his rule, putting down revolts. Strikes at Ma Chao later and forces the divided Qiang out of Wei and out of Liang but Liu Bei has had vital time to establish himself and Wu has had breathing space. Wei would survive though probably

3) Has to race back to Yan and loses Xu to Yuan Shu who presses into Yan. Yuan Shu becomes a great power now with Xu and Yan. Eventually destroys Liu Biao but unpopularity at home with Yuan Shao and Wu attacking might prevent him from unification before his death, Wu perhaps best placed to take advantage

4) Advantage wrecked as he soon dies, with Cao Cao also dead, Tan and Shang fall out. Shang wins with enough time to spare, resources and numbers advantage, a capable general in his own right. Good enough? Possibly.
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Wenze
Right General
Wenze
Right General
Joined: July 17th, 2006, 12:54 am

August 14th, 2009, 9:46 pm #5

Gonna go ahead and sticky this topic.

[quote=Lord_Cao_Cao]1. What if Guo Jia lived longer? Could he have turned tables at Chi Bi?
2. What if Sun Ce wasn't assassinated? Could he have advanced into Zhongyuan?
3. What if Xiahou Yuan succesfully defended Hanzhong against Liu Bei?
4. What if Cao Ang wasn't killed? Could he have been even a better ruler than Cao Pi?[/quote]

1. As Dongzhou said, Guo Jia's biggest talent is his ability to persuade Cao Cao to listen to good advice, not necessarily give it. If he opposed the southern campaign, or felt that the way it was being run wasn't right, he could be able to get Cao Cao to relent.

2. Assuming that had he not been killed, Sun Ce would go ahead with his plan to attack Xuchang in Cao Cao's absence. If he is defeated, he returns to the south and perhaps targets Liu Biao. If he takes Xuchang, he'd likely move to finish off Cao Cao or Yuan Shao. However, due to his aggressiveness and determination to fight in the frontlines, I can't see him living to be too old still.

3. With Hanzhong still in their possession, Wei has an easy route to attack Liu Bei's heartland of Yizhou, and a great commander to lead the assault in Xiahou Yuan still alive. Not only that, Liu Bei's forces would be demoralized and significantly weakened after the defeat and a swift strike could take them out for good.

4. I agree with Dongzhou, we know so little of Ang that it is impossible to tell how Ang would run a nation.

[quote=ShakeDown]1. What if Korea was never taken by Gongsun Du?
2. What if Ma Chao slayed Cao Cao at Tong Gate?
3. What if Cao Cao took Xuzhou from Tao Qian?
4. What if Yuan Shao won at Guan Du?[/quote]

1. Well it was only a very small part of the country that was taken, so aside from the area, nothing would really change.

2. Cao Pi takes over and the army crushes Ma Chao. Emperor Xian probably gets deposed earlier, and Wei might not have had as stable a country as if Cao Cao had lived.

3. Doing so would probably mean abandoning Yanzhou. Cao Cao builds up his strength in Xu and prepares for the battles with Lu Bu. Liu Bei doesn't come to power, and Lu Bu won't be able to go to him for protection. Might go to Yuan Shao instead.

4. If Cao Cao lives, he retreats and regroups. Yuan Shao dies and the inheritance war begins, giving Cao Cao time enough to recover and strike at the north again while Yuan Shang and Yuan Tan are still fighting. If Cao Cao is killed, and with Cao Pi still young, I doubt Wei would come to power.
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Takenaka Hanbei
First Lieutenant
Joined: May 20th, 2008, 12:59 am

August 16th, 2009, 5:04 am #6

[quote=Wenze]3. Doing so would probably mean abandoning Yanzhou. Cao Cao builds up his strength in Xu and prepares for the battles with Lu Bu. Liu Bei doesn't come to power, and Lu Bu won't be able to go to him for protection. Might go to Yuan Shao instead.
[/quote]But would Lu Bu be rejected? He already worked for Yuan Shao once and left almost immediately as well as the fact that Yuan distrusted him (at least I believe so <_<)


Here are my questions:

1): What would happen if Ma Su prevented Wei from taking Jieting?

2): What if Zhuge Liang lived roughly 15 more years?

3): What if Huang Hao had never rose to any power in Shu's court?
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Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Dongzhou
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: May 31st, 2008, 9:01 am

August 16th, 2009, 7:24 am #7

I meant Yuan Shu

1) Since Zhao Yun had lost to Cao Zhen and was retreating, Shu will probably have to retreat anyway. Ma Su's mental collapse sees him not given a command again

2) Shu are more aggressive, maybe gain a town or two extra but Wei knows how to repel him.

3) Chen Zhi would probably still be a corrupt man and Jiang Wei a fame hungry commanders, just wonder if Zhuge Zhan and Dong Jue would have so easily got away with corruption.
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DarkDante
Tiger General
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:21 pm

August 16th, 2009, 2:16 pm #8

1. What would happen if Cao Pi took the advice to attack Wu at the same time as they were battling Shu at Yi Ling??

2. What would happen if He Jin wasn't slain?

3. What would happen if Lu Bu stayed with Ding Yuan?

4. What would happen if Cao Cao saw through Pang Tong's scheme and refused to chain his ships together at Chi Bi?

5. What would happen if Xu Shu actually became a fully devoted strategist for Wei?
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Kiheiji
Commander
Joined: May 17th, 2009, 11:20 am

August 16th, 2009, 2:28 pm #9

[quote=DarkDante]1. What would happen if Cao Pi took the advice to attack Wu at the same time as they were battling Shu at Yi Ling??

2. What would happen if He Jin wasn't slain?

3. What would happen if Lu Bu stayed with Ding Yuan?

4. What would happen if Cao Cao saw through Pang Tong's scheme and refused to chain his ships together at Chi Bi?

5. What would happen if Xu Shu actually became a fully devoted strategist for Wei?[/quote]1. Wu may have to abandon Jing cause they cannot withstand Shu and Wei at once.

2. The Eunuchs will be suppressed earlier but Dong Zhuo will not gain power, at least not if He Jin didn't die.

3. Ding Yuan may have defeated Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu will not be a warlord.

4. Cao Cao might won as Pang Tong might have been executed.

5. It wouldn't really matter. Shu already had Kongming and Pang Tong.
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Hero of Chaos
Emperor's Retainer
Hero of Chaos
Emperor's Retainer
Joined: November 11th, 2007, 11:40 am

August 16th, 2009, 6:12 pm #10

[quote=DarkDante]1. What would happen if Cao Pi took the advice to attack Wu at the same time as they were battling Shu at Yi Ling??

2. What would happen if He Jin wasn't slain?

3. What would happen if Lu Bu stayed with Ding Yuan?

4. What would happen if Cao Cao saw through Pang Tong's scheme and refused to chain his ships together at Chi Bi?

5. What would happen if Xu Shu actually became a fully devoted strategist for Wei?[/quote]1. I agree with ShakeDown,probably they would've abandoned Jing. Or they would've sent troops to oppose Wei (I think not every Wu officer fought at Yi Ling).

2. Dong Zhuo wouldn't rise to power. There would've been no alliance. And I think no three kingdoms,as Cao Cao wouldn't flee the capital.

3. I don't know,I don't think much would change...Dong Zhuo would probably stay alive.

4. Pang Tong didn't chain the ships,it was Cao Cao's idea.

5. I don't think much would change.



Lol,my topic got pinned. :)
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