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SapphireKirby
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Joined: September 28th, 2010, 5:53 pm

July 11th, 2011, 12:40 am #51

I agree with Dongzhuo.

I dislike the way he was portrayed in the novel, it actually makes me slightly mad.

Liu Bei has always been my favourite of the three lords, though.

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bao cai
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bao cai
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March 30th, 2012, 12:40 pm #52

i believe he was one on that moments of war but he wasn't that much good he was a person who wanted the peace however he fought because of the vengeance in his heart i mean yi ling we know hatred forced him to fight without thinking of the lives of his men so how can this man be virtue when he doesn't listen to a genius like zhuge liang
The death with honor is superior than the life you must beg your enemy to achieve it.
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Dongzhou
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Dongzhou
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Joined: May 31st, 2008, 9:01 am

March 31st, 2012, 5:30 pm #53

Welcome to the forum Diao Chan.flowerofHan .

Historically, that isn't true. Zhuge Liang had given bad advice before, some arguably near suicidal, and been ignored so ignoring the advice of Liang isn't a sign of much. Besides, most camapigns had some opposition.

I actually think Zhuge Liang's advice on this issue was wrong. It certainly doesn't make Liu Bei less or more virtuous for ignoring it. As for the issue of vengeance, I don't think that was Liu Bei's main priority. He had political justification for attacking Wu, he had military reasons, there was the issue of Jing and timing seemed to be on his side.

The grief/vengeance stricken Liu Bei is from the novel. The novel Liu Bei was always pretty emotional and I did have some sympathy for his pain but he does go too far in allowing grief to cloud his judgement. However it is human for emotions to cloud cold logic and the greater good so I try not to be too hard on him.

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bao cai
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April 1st, 2012, 3:01 pm #54

however that doesn't mean that zhuge liang is ignorant and liu bei was the best because zhuge didn't attack wu. they only didn't give jing to wu and also i can't get you which advise you mean sending guan yu to jing or tying to stop liu bei from breaking up with quan
The death with honor is superior than the life you must beg your enemy to achieve it.
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Dongzhou
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April 1st, 2012, 6:07 pm #55

I never said Liang was ignorant or that Liu Bei was the best. Zhuge Liang had not reached his peak years in terms of judgement, Liu Bei was a clever man, that is as far as I would go. As for Zhuge Liang attacking Wu, that would have been a poor policy but the situation was very different for Liu Bei.

The bits of Jing that were heatedly disputed were taken in 215 by Wu under Lu Su. Wu had no rights to the lands they took in 219 except by right of conquest. Even if Wu had a claim, Liu Bei still had plenty reason to launch an invasion of his own two years later.

The worst advice was to attack Liu Zong but he hardly covered himself in glory with his handling of Fa Zheng, the diplomatic trip to Wu, failure to predict the unease in Wu (though all Shu seems guilty of that) or during Liu Bei's attack on Hanzhong when he nearly didn't raise the army like he was ordered to.
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bao cai
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April 2nd, 2012, 3:19 pm #56

however that doesn't mean zhuge liang was a fool not a talented one and the reasons you're speaking about aren't that much that you think
The death with honor is superior than the life you must beg your enemy to achieve it.
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Dongzhou
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April 3rd, 2012, 8:28 am #57

bao cai wrote:however that doesn't mean zhuge liang was a fool not a talented one and the reasons you're speaking about aren't that much that you think
Sorry, where did I say Zhuge Liang was a fool or untalented? The man was a brilliant inventor and administrator, a skilled if cautoius commander. Doesn't mean everything he said was right. Nearly every adviser, particularly inexperienced ones like Liang was, give stupid advice at some point or another. Then trick for a ruler is knowing when the advice is good and when it is bad.

That last sentence is confusing? Do you mean the reasons for Liu Bei attacking Wu aren't strong? If not, please ignore rest of post.

Ok let's compare the two options, then you can see why Liu Bei might have rejected the pro-attack Wei camp:

Attack Wu

Justification: The 219 invasion was on parts of Jing that Wu had no claim on. Wu had just turned around and backstabbed them, killing senior generals and making a land-grab. Kinda hard not to be able to spin justification out of that, though wait too long and that goes.

Reasons for attacking at that point rather then Wei:

-Shu needs Jing. Shu as the smallest kingdom is more going to be hurt then the bigger two rivals. Yet even leaving out the resources that extra land gives, Shu still needs Jing. Without it, they have only one route of attack, with the difficulties of supplies through Hanzhong. Jing allows a viceroy to launch an independent or joint attack, right into the heart of Wei. There are reasons some argue Shu was long term doomed by the events of 219 and the failure at Yiling.

-Wu has lost Lu Meng and it's anti-Shu army is under the relatively inexperienced hands of Lu Xun, who would prove to struggle to impose order on his officers.

-Wu may be doing diplomacy but they aren't offering anything.

-Shu is now mocked as too weak to defend itself, only Liu Ye in Wei's court seemed to believe Liu Bei could strike back. That kind of perceived position is not where any kingdom or country wants to be. A kingdom too weak to defend itself will have no diplomatic clout and may find itself seen as a target by Wu and Wei. An attack on Wei is just what Wu want and might well give Shu a new name: Wu's puppet. That being the polite version of a name for a kingdom that has been crippled and yet helps the guy who crippled it.

-Wei and Wu's relationship is breaking down. This means Liu Bei can afford to be defeated and, as long as the defeat isn't too devastating (which unfortunately, Yi Ling was too devastating), he can get something out of this. With luck, Pi would invade Wu at the same time and Liu Bei can exploit that. If Pi invades later then Liu Bei can make another attack, then either seizing lands while Wu is hard pressed or forcing Wu into a proper diplomatic deal.

-Wu will have forces committed to Ruxu due to the potential threat of Wei.

-Your officers have some knowledge of the area and Wu has yet to fully establish control, there will be some revolts to try and exploit.

-Taking Jing, by force or diplomacy, would boost Shu. It makes Shu seem strong, it would give them lands and a second route and this seems easier to do then taking Liang or Chang An.

Reasons not to invade Wu:

-Cao Pi becoming Emperor, invading him as both symbolic and opportunistic reasons.

-To keep Wu onside for longer.

Attack Wei:

Justification: Cao Pi overthrowing the Han. Easy one for Shu to justify

Reason to attack Wei:

-Cao Pi has become Emperor and overthrew the Han. Shu has declared itself the continuation of said Han. There is something to be said for the symbol of attacking the usurper. Striking Wu first does destroy that symbol.

-Uncertainty in Wei. The loss of Cao Cao and a new ruler is bound to unsettle a few people. Throw in the end of the Han and there may be uncertainty to exploit. Cao Pi was aware of it, partly why he delayed an attack on Wu as he shored up his position. If Liu Bei invades, it may spark off revolts or defections that hampers Wei's defense and gives Liu Bei something to exploit.

-Getting Chang An would grand Shu a huge political boost, getting Liang would hopefully provide cavalry to help match Wei.

-Wu would be grateful.

Problems with attack Wei:

-Problem with the Liang/Chang An thing: Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei never got close to managing this and it would require a brilliant camapign+luck whereas Jing could be easier to get hold of.

-Will need an impressive victory to make up for the Wu puppet thing. Can they get it? Can they even get a victory?

-Wei does seem to have had defenses in place for a Shu attack.

-The supply lines at Hanzhong will make things difficult for an extended camapign. Liu Bei's record is that of a man who fights extended camapigns and long sieges rather then a quick blitz to victory.

Overall

Now you may disagree with some points and have stuff that makes you think attacking Wei would be the right choice, would be delighted to hear them. I do think Liu Bei had to fight Wu at that time as I don't believe he could have gained enough fro invading Wei to make up for the consequences of Wu's invasion of 219. Even though you disagree, I hope you can accept that so how can this man be virtue when he doesn't listen to a genius like zhuge liang was unfair, that Liu Bei had a calculated decision to make and had plenty of reason to reject Zhuge Liang's advice.
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Joestar
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Joined: September 16th, 2010, 5:01 pm

April 3rd, 2012, 6:50 pm #58

Liu Bei does seem virtuous and seems the most genuine of all lords. However, i do believe that conquest and the heat of war affected him and he knew he would have to be oppurtune to guarantee the survival of Shu. Then there are times i feel he was rather sly and deceiving, although i do still believe this was to ensure he didn't lag behind the other kingdoms: Take for instance his rebellion against Cao Cao after fighting Yuan Shu. He was probably acting under his strategists' advice and he knew he would be a ruler. Sometimes he did seem to incite battle, but i think it was to portect his future
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bao cai
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April 5th, 2012, 11:40 am #59

hey but dong zhou i think he was a bit mad you know he could attack wei then destroy wu however the vengeance of his brother's death maybe forced him to face wu first and some thing else i didn't say he attacked wei without reason and that's acceptable
The death with honor is superior than the life you must beg your enemy to achieve it.
CYRUS the GREAT
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Dongzhou
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April 5th, 2012, 4:18 pm #60

wrote: i think he was a bit mad
Evidence? Saying a man was a bit mad, you really need to back that up. Everything about his camapign against Wu was conducted in his usual overly cautoius manner. I see no evidence that Liu Bei was being anything other then the rational, clever but cautoius warlord that he usually was.
wrote: you know he could attack wei then destroy wu
He could attack Wei yes. To what end? You believe attacking Wei was best but you don't say why.
wrote: however the vengeance of his brother's death maybe forced him to face wu first
If one thing forced his hand, I think it is the need Jing or die thing. Maybe the being called Wu's slave toy. Though I think he also saw an opportunity given the circumstances.
wrote: some thing else i didn't say he attacked wei without reason and that's acceptable
I'm glad you never said that but I never accused you of it. I merely outlined the pro's and cons of attacking Wei at that time instead of Wu. Though I do think the attack Wu argument I outlined is considerably stronger.
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