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Historicity of the Novel

Artemis
Artemis

January 10th, 2007, 7:12 am #1

This thread is for discussion and questions on how events in the novel differ from events in the actual history of the Three Kingdoms. In this thread, you may ask whether something in the novel was historically true or not. You may also discuss with me or other people on issues pertaining to the historicity of certain parts in the novel. Some questions I can think of off the top of my head...

1Q.) Did Zhou Tai actually save Sun Quan in Xuan.
1A.) Yes. This actually happened. It is said that if Zhou Tai had not been with Sun Quan on that day, Sun Quan would have been killed. Historically though, Sun Quan had soldiers with him that helped protect him as well.

2Q.) What duels from the novel historically happened?
2A.) Guan Yu's duel with Yan Liang, a duel between Lu Bu and Guo Si and a duel between Taishi Ci and Sun Ce all probably happened historically. The first one ended in Yan Liang's death, the second one had Lu Bu defeat Guo Si, but several of Guo Si's riders came up and stopped Lu Bu from landing the killing blow on their lord. The third duel is mentioned as being fairly brief in historical sources. The two generals saw each other, rode out to fight one another, and after a little while each of them withdrew back to their camps.

3Q.) Did Guan Yu historically escape through those 5 Passes and kill those 5 Guards?
3A.) There is no record of this having happened in historical sources, and therefore it probably didn't happen.

4Q.) Were the Nanman Campaigns historical?
4A.) The Sanguozhi mentions that Zhuge Liang did go South, presumably to settle rebels. It would appear that Zhuge Liang's main enemies were minor officers in the book's Nanman Campaign chapters. There were people like Gao Ding, Zhu Bao and Yong Kai. Meng Huo was probably a historical character, and was also a rebel from the South. Unfortunately, since King Mulu, Wutu Gu, Zhu Rong and others don't appear in historical sources, they are probably fictional.

For a more in-depth guide of inconsistencies between the history of the three kingdoms and the novel, click [url=http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=2826]here[/url] for James' guide from Kongming Archives' Forums.
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Will
Han's Unifier
Will
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Joined: May 16th, 2006, 10:53 pm

January 10th, 2007, 2:52 pm #2


3Q.) Did Guan Yu historically escape through those 5 Passes and kill those 5 Guards?
3A.) There is no record of this having happened in historical sources, and therefore it probably didn't happen.

You should umm put that in the three kingdom section. So Guan Yu did kill 5 generals in the novel
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XenoShaun
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Joined: July 7th, 2006, 11:20 am

January 10th, 2007, 3:46 pm #3

I believe Slick is comparing certain things that happened in the novel that may or may not have happened in actual history.
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Hebi
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Joined: September 4th, 2005, 1:44 am

January 10th, 2007, 5:16 pm #4

This topic is a really good idea ^^
There sometimes huge differences between the book and the reality...
What about JingZhou? Did Wu really lend it to Shu in the first place, or it's an invention from the book?
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Will
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Will
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Joined: May 16th, 2006, 10:53 pm

January 10th, 2007, 5:42 pm #5

[quote=HebiYaro] This topic is a really good idea ^^
There sometimes huge differences between the book and the reality...
What about JingZhou? Did Wu really lend it to Shu in the first place, or it's an invention from the book? [/quote]
It's a invention of the book. the only thing Liu Bei borrowed was JiangLing and returned it with jiangxia. Later on he gave Wu Ling ing, and Changsha in 215.

"The problem is that Wu never owned all of Jingzhou in the first place, hence 'borrow' and 'give back' are meaningless. Not a single Wu soldier was used to capture Changsha, Guiyang, and Lingling, yet by Wu's demands, these three prefectures had to be 'returned'. Liu Qi's Southern Jiangxia was suddenly merged into Wu territory. How can you lend someone something that you didn't own in the first place? Liu Bei was under no obligation to 'return' anything other than the city of Jiangling (which according to some historical text, Zhang Fei may have participated in it's capture)."
From the Admin in 3k.net Shu-Han Zhao Lie Di
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Artemis
Artemis

January 11th, 2007, 12:25 am #6

Sun Quan allowed Liu Bei to occupy several commanderies in Jingzhou. Jingzhou was, however, partitioned for a long time between the three kingdoms of Cao Cao's, Liu Bei's and Sun Quan's; Liu Bei never held all of the province within his grasp.

In the novel, Liu Bei managed to occupy a city in Jing that Zhou Yu was besieging by using a ruse. Liu Bei's army waited while Zhou Yu weakened the forces of the city's defender, Cao Ren. Then, at an opportune time, Liu Bei's army took over the city for themselves. This scheme was credited to Zhuge Liang, but Zhao Yun was the one to lead Liu Bei's army to conquer the city. Zhou Yu attacks Zhao Yun's army for this, but fails to reconquer the city he had tried so hard to bring down.

And yes, Shaun is correct. This is the only thread of this board where some three kingdoms history, can be discussed. The purpose of this thread is to clarify what really happened in the novel and to compare the novel and history (what do you like best in both?, etc.)
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Hebi
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Joined: September 4th, 2005, 1:44 am

January 11th, 2007, 12:23 pm #7

Ok thanks for your replies ^^
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Will
Han's Unifier
Will
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Joined: May 16th, 2006, 10:53 pm

January 11th, 2007, 1:31 pm #8

[quote=HebiYaro] Ok thanks for your replies ^^ [/quote]
Just to tell you Shu and Wu. I mean Zhou Yu and Shu were friends. He never was mad at zhuge liang, he gave them jiangling as lu su advise and zhang fei was there to have Zhou Yu back.
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Hebi
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Joined: September 4th, 2005, 1:44 am

January 11th, 2007, 4:06 pm #9

I already knew that, for Zhou Yu I mean, but I was just wondering about Jing (if Wu was really right to ask it back), since that's one of the major conflicts between the two kingdoms in the novel.
I think that Artemis should paste the list made on [url=http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=2826]the topic of James[/url] , on Shen Zhou... cause it's really interesting
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Artemis
Artemis

January 11th, 2007, 4:23 pm #10

That's a good list. I'll paste the link to it in my first post...
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