CCTV information

"We need an official inquiry - now. Not a whitewash inquiry like Lord Hutton's. Or a punch-pulling inquiry like Lord Butler's. But an inquiry run by plain Mr or Mrs somebody." - Lt. Col. Crispin Black
An independent, public discussion, analysis and inquiry into the events of July 7th.

CCTV information

Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 13:09

08 Jan 2007, 14:59 #1

This extract is from a private survivor/bereaved notice board whereby survivors/bereaved can talk to police about the investigation and share info and support.

'S' is a survivor
'T' is a Met officer and the site owner
'C' is a DCI on Operation Theseus in S015 ( created when SO12 and SO13 merged in October)
'J' was bereaved on July 7


As I said, I have a friend who uses the board. Names of those discussing have been hidden for privacy. As I have said, I do not agree with the practice of publishing the names of survivors or bereaved who may then be contacted by members of the public and asked intrusive questions...

Curious Piglet

(1) CCTV placing bombers in London Created By: 'S' 04/12/2006 - 11:29:32
Updated By: 04/12/2006 - 11:39:08

Dear SO13, To date the public have only been shown one grainy image of the bombers entering Luton station.

But there are thousands of CCTV cameras all over London, and images of
three of the bombers doing a'practice run' before 7/7/ and buying tickets on
the Underground have been shown - and are of a high quality.
Unfortunately the lack of images placing the bombers in London, rather than
Luton, has led to widespread 'conspiracy theories'. The Government's official narrative giving a non-existent train that never ran as the one the bombers caught from Luton to Kings Cross made things worse and I have come across people saying that there is some kind of cover up.
Checking out internet message boards, it seems these doubts are becoming widespread particularly amongst some young Muslims and these bizarre conspiracy theories are gaining in popularity. I think this increasing denial of the culpability of the bombers ( the attitude of 'there's no proof they were even there') is unhelpful for police/community relations and surely we need good intelligence and good relations to prevent future attacks
This site may give you an idea of how determined some people are to query
the official account -
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/
there are many similar sites and more spring up all the time.
I have little time for paranoid conspiracy theories but even I am puzzled as to why no evidence placing the bombers in London has ever been shown. I can see that images of them boarding the tubes with other commuters
could be distressing, but is there any CCTV of them at Kings Cross
Thameslink, or Kings Cross mainland station, or on their way to the tubes
that could be produced? I'm sure this would stop a lot of the odd rumours
which are doing the rounds

Many thanks, I am very grateful for your help.
Kind Regards
'S'

(2) Re CCTV Created By: T 13/12/2006 - 10:47:52
Updated By: 'T' 13/12/2006 - 10:49:15

Response to: CCTV placing bombers in London by S
Dear 'S',
I passed this to SO13 when you PM'd me a couple of weeks ago and I await a reply.
I will forward this one to them too,
regards
'T'

(3) Re: Re CCTV Created By: S 14/12/2006 - 11:44:59
Updated By: S 14/12/2006 - 11:45:31

Response to: Re CCTV by
Thank you 'T'. I have had an email response from a DCI who has said he hopes to get back with some news this week.
Best wishes
'S'

(4) Re: CCTV placing bombers in London Created By: C 16/12/2006 - 11:07:17
Updated By: C 16/12/2006 - 12:53:11


Response to: CCTV placing bombers in London by S
Thank you for your question regarding CCTV images collected in the Op Theseus investigation. In any investigation, material is gathered and decisions made about the potential significance of the material with respect to legal procedures. These decisions are made for reasons considered to be appropriate at the time.
I'd like to reassure you that there is an active criminal investigation seeking to identify others who may, or may not, have a criminal liability for the atrocities. Because of this investigation, there remain issues which are subject to investigation, and cannot be disclosed at this time. Also, there is an investigation being conducted in support of the Coroner, and we wouldn't want to do anything that might compromise the proceedings.
Having said all that, circumstances change as the investigation progresses. It's right to say that we have identified a large number of CCTV images of the bombers on the 7th July, and of the earlier trip to London on the 28th June. It's also right to say that there will be gaps in this coverage for both days. Whilst there are a large number of CCTV cameras in public places, there are obviously many factors that affect their operation. with respect to 'conspiracy theories', if a person has the view that the enquiry is less than transparent, it could be difficult to change this view.
It is sobering to see the detailed analysis, conducted by persons with apparent authority, of the limited material released to the media. One of the many things that police have to prove is the 'evidential continuity' of exhibits, sometimes even from before they become significant as exhibits. This continuity is an issue which is subject of detailed scrutiny in legal proceedings. The whole process is carefully documented, and any break in this documentation immediately devalues the exhibit. Normal everyday problems affect the operation of CCTV systems, and can lead to gaps that can be exploited by those who wish to do so. I hope that exotic speculations are balanced against the fact that CCTV systems are operated by people just doing their jobs, they are collected by people just doing their jobs, and they are viewed by people just doing their jobs. The process yields incredible results, but they are genuine results. For example, I remember the moment when David Copeland, the London Nail Bomber was first identified - our first breakthrough in that case.
In addition to this, CCTV cannot be viewed in isolation - many strands of investigation are brought together to get the greatest evidential value from the images. Images of people entering a station are worked in reverse to find the vehicles they arrived in, potential routes are traced and images viewed to see whether the vehicles can be seen in other places, and so on, to the start of a journey. Financial and general enquiries can give insight into ownership, or hiring. Forensic work is used to add or detract from other findings. Documentary, technical and witness accounts are also added to lead to a formidable account of events.
Release of CCTV imagery in isolation will show what police say it shows. It would have to be accompanied by explanation and a sequence of events, involving other strands of the enquiry to enable those viewing the images to recognise their significance. This explanation and corroboration could amount to much of the material to be used in the Coroner's court. This may lead to intense media speculation, and the Coroner's inquest being conducted in advance by our rightly vigilant, necessarily intrusive, but sometimes speculative media. It may also compromise the criminal investigation. We have to take immense care with this.
It is not an easy decision to make. The needs of: the families, friends and loved ones of the deceased; families of others involved in the bombings; yourselves; the Coroner; and the criminal investigation, all have to be balanced. Difficult, however, doesn't mean we shouldn't recognise that there may be great benefits to those whose lives were deeply touched by the atrocities of 7/7, and who may wish to see the images.
I've consulted with the Senior Investigating Officer, and the decision to withhold access is being re-examined. We also have another meeting with the Coroner in mid January, and will raise the issue of CCTV product at that meeting. I will write to this forum again about this issue. Hope this helps.
'C', DCI SO15

(5) Re: CCTV placing bombers in London Created By: S 18/12/2006 - 14:18:43
Updated By: S 18/12/2006 - 14:19:23.
Response to: Re: CCTV placing bombers in London by C
Thank you very much for your response, C,
I will wait for further updates
best wishes
'S'

(6) Re: CCTV placing bombers in London Created By: J 19/12/2006 - 09:26:12
Updated By: 'J' 19/12/2006 - 09:35:36


Response to: CCTV placing bombers in London by S
Dear 'C',
The victims of the bombing were identified by either DNA samples, Finger Prints or from Dental records i believe.
Can you confirm this was also the case for the bombers.
Like S, i have no time for conspiracy theories and the likes.
If they did not travel on the trains, who's remains were taken to Pakistan to be buried as a martyr.
Thanks 'J'

(7) Re: CCTV placing bombers in London Created By: C 08/01/2007 - 09:37:11
Updated By: C 08/01/2007 - 09:39:05


Response to: Re: CCTV placing bombers in London by J
Thanks for your question. Sorry for the delay in responding, I've only just seen this one. I will get back to you with the best answer I can as quickly as I can.
Best wishes
'C '

edited to italicise my intro
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Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 13:09

08 Jan 2007, 15:15 #2

14 views and no responses?

This is data direct from the investigating team!
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Joined: 26 Nov 2005, 01:46

08 Jan 2007, 15:29 #3

curiouspiglet @ Jan 8 2007, 03:15 PM wrote:14 views and no responses?

This is data direct from the investigating team!
Thanks cp for posting this it is very informative.

It also shows that survivors are concerned with the lack of evidence, which is what unites us fundamentally. The julyseventh truth campaign was correct about the cancelled train and the flaw in the official report concerning this matter. I wonder if your friend knows whether John Reid has explained this error yet? We also note that despite his saying that the official report will be amended that, to date, this has not happened. The Home Office site still links to the original pdf. Just has the same whiff of contempt for the facts, the evidence, the victims & survivors and their families and loved ones, and the rest of the British public.
�To those who are afraid of the truth, I wish to offer a few scary truths; and to those who are not afraid of the truth, I wish to offer proof that the terrorism of truth is the only one that can be of benefit to the proletariat.� -- On Terrorism and the State, Gianfranco Sanguinetti
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Joined: 26 Nov 2005, 01:46

08 Jan 2007, 15:31 #4

It is sobering to see the detailed analysis, conducted by persons with apparent authority, of the limited material released to the media
Was the DCI referring to us?
�To those who are afraid of the truth, I wish to offer a few scary truths; and to those who are not afraid of the truth, I wish to offer proof that the terrorism of truth is the only one that can be of benefit to the proletariat.� -- On Terrorism and the State, Gianfranco Sanguinetti
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Joined: 11 May 2006, 14:55

08 Jan 2007, 15:38 #5

Thank you CP, useful stuff.
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Joined: 26 Nov 2005, 01:46

08 Jan 2007, 15:42 #6

I've consulted with the Senior Investigating Officer, and the decision to withhold access is being re-examined. We also have another meeting with the Coroner in mid January, and will raise the issue of CCTV product at that meeting.
This sounds hopeful.

It would be good to know who the coronor is as I intend to write to him/her about Jenny Nicholson and Christian Small.
�To those who are afraid of the truth, I wish to offer a few scary truths; and to those who are not afraid of the truth, I wish to offer proof that the terrorism of truth is the only one that can be of benefit to the proletariat.� -- On Terrorism and the State, Gianfranco Sanguinetti
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Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 13:09

08 Jan 2007, 16:03 #7

It is sobering to see the detailed analysis, conducted by persons with apparent authority, of the limited material released to the media
Was the DCI referring to us?

Yes. Also here
with respect to 'conspiracy theories', if a person has the view that the enquiry is less than transparent, it could be difficult to change this view. It is sobering to see the detailed analysis, conducted by persons with apparent authority, of the limited material released to the media. One of the many things that police have to prove is the 'evidential continuity' of exhibits, sometimes even from before they become significant as exhibits. This continuity is an issue which is subject of detailed scrutiny in legal proceedings. The whole process is carefully documented, and any break in this documentation immediately devalues the exhibit. Normal everyday problems affect the operation of CCTV systems, and can lead to gaps that can be exploited by those who wish to do so. I hope that exotic speculations are balanced against the fact that CCTV systems are operated by people just doing their jobs, they are collected by people just doing their jobs, and they are viewed by people just doing their jobs.
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