Moderator: Daimyo

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

November 28th, 2017, 3:03 am #51

Kurogami wrote:
kitsuno wrote:Here are all of the sources that I used for the podcast episode on Seppuku.
I like the tune at the end of the podcast. What is it called? Can you link me to a full version?
It's actually a few posts up from here: http://forums.samurai-archives.com/sing ... t=10256348
Quote
Like
Share

Kurogami
Rice Farmer
Rice Farmer
Kurogami
Rice Farmer
Rice Farmer
Joined: November 13th, 2017, 10:37 pm

December 1st, 2017, 2:43 am #52

Thank you for the early release link of Ouchi Clan Documents and the Battle of Funaokayama P2. So a light bulb came on when Nate mentioned the Minister of the Left 左大臣 = Minister of the East 左大臣. So that means Minister of the Right 右大臣 = Minister of the West.

Sorry if this is Heian Court Nobility 101...would someone mind giving me a brief explanation for why these imperial titles were labeled with cardinal directions? And why is the left/east ranked higher than the right/west?

Did these titles come from inyougogyou 陰陽五行 cosmology? A Buddhist reference to gokuraku 極楽 western paradise? Or from something else? Thanks!
"You've never seen a person chop wood before?"
"Oh yes, but you seem to enjoy it so"
"Ah, that's just my nature. Sorry if it offends you."
Quote
Like
Share

Toranosuke
Archer
Archer
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 4:09 am

December 1st, 2017, 7:55 am #53

Someone else might know better, but I believe the courtiers/officials may have actually been assigned to set places within the imperial audience halls - i.e. being divided into those who sat on the left side of the hall, and those who sat on the right. Which is to say, the Sadaijin and all his followers or subordinates sitting to the emperor's left, and the Udaijin and his men sitting to the emperor's right. And since the palace would have been organized (god I hope I'm remembering this right and not making a fool of myself) to face south, the emperor's left would have been on the east, and his right on the west. And since the East is associated with the Rising Sun, therefore it's higher in status than the west, associated with the setting sun. Right?

Whether that's 陰陽五行 or not, I'm not sure, but it definitely has origins in Chinese geomancy, or feng shui, or whatever one wants to call it. I'm not 100% positive about the layout of the Heian palace, but Chinese imperial palaces were certainly organized in a fashion along these lines, with geographic positioning having strong importance/significance.
Quote
Like
Share

ltdomer98
Izumi no kami
Izumi no kami
ltdomer98
Izumi no kami
Izumi no kami
Joined: March 8th, 2015, 5:42 pm

December 1st, 2017, 3:38 pm #54

They copied Chinese (Tang) titles and court/governmental organizations. We've been spending some time on this in class, as we're working our way through some court diaries and so on, and titles are a big thing. I'm starting to think that at some point I want to take a look at the changes in importance--we're often told that by the 16th C the titles were "meaningless" since they didn't actually correspond to fulfilling certain duties and multiple people could hold the same title. Yet they're still given out, still sought after, still clearly have "meaning." I've been talking a lot with Conlan about when it changes, and how much it changes, and he's of the idea that they still hold a lot of importance--to the point of where, as we're talking about the Ouchi, being Sakyo Daibu or Ukyo Daibu means you're literally "governing" that half of Kyoto, in the early 16th C. I'm not sure how I'd go about tracking this, other than a ton of diving into texts, but it's something that fascinates me.

Daijo Daijin Emeritus
退職させていただきます。
Quote
Like
Share

Toranosuke
Archer
Archer
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 4:09 am

December 2nd, 2017, 1:09 am #55

It would really be fascinating to learn what, if any, actual practical power/authority or responsibilities came with these court titles in the Sengoku through Edo periods.
Quote
Like
Share

Kurogami
Rice Farmer
Rice Farmer
Kurogami
Rice Farmer
Rice Farmer
Joined: November 13th, 2017, 10:37 pm

December 2nd, 2017, 2:03 am #56

Toranosuke wrote:[from Toranosuke] ...the Sadaijin and all his followers or subordinates sitting to the emperor's left, and the Udaijin and his men sitting to the emperor's right. ...the emperor's left would have been on the east, and his right on the west. And since the East is associated with the Rising Sun, therefore it's higher in status than the west, associated with the setting sun. Right?...Chinese imperial palaces were certainly organized in a fashion along these lines, with geographic positioning having strong importance/significance.

[from ltdomer98] They copied Chinese (Tang) titles and court/governmental organizations. ...court diaries and so on, and titles are a big thing.
...by the 16th C the titles were "meaningless" ...Yet they're still given out, still sought after, still clearly have "meaning." ...talking about the Ouchi, being Sakyo Daibu or Ukyo Daibu means you're literally "governing" that half of Kyoto, in the early 16th C. ...it's something that fascinates me.
Thank you, your thoughts sent me off on a hunt and I think I found a clue.

This paper Land of the Rising Sun: The Predominant East-West Axis Among the Early Japanese confirms ltdomer98's summary of how the Japanese Imperial Court adopted the ideal layout of the Chinese capital, and it was based on fengshui/fuusui 風水 (wind water) geomancy. (BTW, thanks for the correction Toranosuke, cosmology is metaphysics, not spatial orientation.)

The author confirms Toranosuke's suggestion that indigenous Japanese beliefs equated the east-west orientation as holding superior value/power/meaning in relation to the origin of the sun. As noted by ltdomer98, by the Heian period, the sources incorporated Chinese geomancy and superimposed it onto the Japanese beliefs.

As evidence of this, the author looked at early references (mythology, literature, archaeology, historical records, scholars) and found the earlier sources clearly included more east-west axis references. The later sources give way to more Chinese north-south axis (North Star, feng shui) references.

There is some debate as to whether the east represents the planetary object, or manifestation of a deity. The author seems to agree with the latter and offers these two translations.

From the Kojiki: Then [Itu-se-no-mikoto] said: 'It is not right for me, the child of the sun-deity, to fight facing the sun. This is why I have been wounded by such a lowly wretch. Now let us go around to where the sun will be at our backs and attack.' Thus agreeing, they went around from the south.26 At this time, Waka-kusaka-be-n6-miko sent word to the emperor: 'It is an awesome thing that you should deign to come with the sun at your back. Rather let me go up directly [to the capital] and serve you.' For this reason, he went back to the palace.

From the Nihon Shoki: The Emperor was vexed, and revolved in his inmost heart a divine plan, saying:- 'I am the descendant of the Sun-Goddess, and if I proceed against the Sun to attack the enemy, I shall act contrary to the way of Heaven. Better to retreat and make a show of weakness. Then sacrificing to the Gods of Heaven and Earth, and bringing on our backs the might of the Sun-Goddess, let us follow her rays and trample them down. If we do so, the enemy will assuredly be routed of themselves, and we shall not stain our swords with blood.'

The author proposes the meaning of these passages goes beyond the tactical advantage of having the sun glaring into the eyes of your enemy and points to superstitious/supernatural instructions. The idea being that keeping your back towards the sun allows the sun deities to infuse your body with mystical power. And conversely, facing the sun drains you of power. The original solar charging system!

So putting two and two together....this means that when the Minister of the Left addresses or visits the Minister of the Right, the sun is shining on his back.

Regarding ltdomer98's comments...what popped into my head is this is why left/east and right/west titles are so important. They offer a divine reinforcement of a lord's authority.

Back to the paper...historian Senda Minoru suggests ritsuryou titles may have been influenced as much by the indigenous east-west axis as T'ang geomancy.

From the Nihon Shoki In this way East and West were reckoned as in a line with the sun, while North and South were reckoned as athwart the sun. The sunny side of the mountains was called the light-face and the shady side of the mountains was called the back-face.

Senda interprets this passage as describing 6 regions under the ritsuryou system. Four named using cardinal directions--Toukaidou/Tousandou (east), Saikaidou (west), Nankaidou (south), Kokurikudou (north). Two named using the east/west axis, Sanyoudou 山陽道 (sunny side of the mountains) and and Sanindou 山陰道 (shady side of the mountains).

I read through this really fast, so apologies in advance if I've misinterpreted things.

BTW, I also like tracing how meaning changes over time. It seems to me that to properly understand Japanese language (and maybe everything?) you must learn to read the void between the sparkly bits.

P.S.--Interesting side note, the paper mentions using the animals of the four quarters to name sections of the city in the late 7th thru 8th century:
north, genbu 玄武、Black Turtle
east, seiryou き竜, Azure Dragon
south, suzaku 朱雀, Red Bird
west, byakko 白虎, White Tiger

If these names look familiar, it's probably because they are the four home-defense units used by Aizu han during the Aizu War (autumn 1968). The Byakkotai are of course famous in Japan for their tragic deaths during the initial invasion of the castle town Wakamatsu.

The Aizu han's home-defense troops were organized using French military strategy, so why label them using 8th century references? Especially because this usage of the animal corners was pretty much discarded by the Heian period and replaced with T'ang geomancy.

I've been doing some reading about the Aizu War and it seems sometime around the Battle of Toba Fushimi (early 1868), pro-imperial forces branded the Aizu as enemies of the emperor. Partly it was the manifestation of the bitter grudge fostered by the Choushuu against the Aizu, but it was also designed to encourage their allies to switch sides.

I am relying on a scant handful of English sources, so take this with a grain of salt...it seems the Aizu pride was severely stung by this accusation. So it got me wondering...perhaps the use of classical names dating back to the Nara period was a statement of the Aizu's alignment with the Yamato Court. In other words, they weren't fighting to usurp Emperor Meiji so much as to uphold a greater, overarching ideal of imperial authority.

At any rate, thanks for the input!
"You've never seen a person chop wood before?"
"Oh yes, but you seem to enjoy it so"
"Ah, that's just my nature. Sorry if it offends you."
Quote
Like
Share

Kurogami
Rice Farmer
Rice Farmer
Kurogami
Rice Farmer
Rice Farmer
Joined: November 13th, 2017, 10:37 pm

December 2nd, 2017, 4:23 am #57

Reading my post, I think I missed connecting the dots regarding sanyoudou/sanindou...

I think (big emphasis on my thinking) what Senda was saying is the Nihon Shoki inserts the Chinese labels of yin/yang with a distinctly Japanese interpretation.

The Chinese concept of "inyou" 陰陽 (yin/yang) refers to a pair of primal, interconnected phases/forces. From their interaction comes all matter/energy/life.

By Senda's interpretation, "in" (sun at your back) and "you" (sun in your face) are orientations along lines of mystical power that, while opposing, are not necessarily interconnected. This meaning includes a stronger connection with deities and less with metaphysics.

At least that's how I understood that part of the paper. OK, that's it, I'm done... :confused:

"You've never seen a person chop wood before?"
"Oh yes, but you seem to enjoy it so"
"Ah, that's just my nature. Sorry if it offends you."
Quote
Like
Share

Toranosuke
Archer
Archer
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 4:09 am

December 3rd, 2017, 12:24 am #58

wrote:The idea being that keeping your back towards the sun allows the sun deities to infuse your body with mystical power. And conversely, facing the sun drains you of power. The original solar charging system!

So putting two and two together....this means that when the Minister of the Left addresses or visits the Minister of the Right, the sun is shining on his back.
This is great! I love learning about how simple practical realities inform ritual practice, and superstition.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

December 6th, 2017, 3:50 am #59

I've been asked a lot about Samurai Archives Podcast episodes being uploaded to Youtube for those times when you don't have access to a phone or iPod, so now all new episodes publish automatically to the Samurai Archives Podcast Youtube page in addition to all the regular places:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSumlI ... fLSlM21YRQ

Head over there now to subscribe, and you'll get instant notification when a new episode publishes.
Last edited by kitsuno on December 6th, 2017, 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

December 26th, 2017, 7:49 pm #60

Here are the sources I used for the 47 Ronin podcast (12/31/17 - or 12/29 for Patreon supporters). After this will be an episode on the punishment of the 47 Ronin, and a lot more of the sources will come into play.

Tales of Old Japan - Mitford

Seppuku - Andrew Rankin

The Revenge of the 47 Ronin - Turnbull

Ellgen, J. P. (2007). The Changing Significance of Seppuku in Tokugawa Japan (M.A. Humanities). California State University Dominguez Hills.

Masahide, B., & Smith, H. D. (2003). The Akō Incident, 1701-1703. Monumenta Nipponica, 58(2), 149–170.

Norinaga, M., & Marcon, F. (2003). The Story of the Loyal Samurai of Akō. Monumenta Nipponica, 58(4), 467–493.

Smith, H. (2006). The media and politics of Japanese popular history: The case of the Akō Gishi. Historical Consciousness, Historiography, and Modern Japanese Values. Retrieved from http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/pdf/2006_ ... litics.pdf

Smith, H. D. (2003). The Capacity of Chūshingura: Three Hundred Years of Chūshingura. Monumenta Nipponica, 58(1), 1–42.

Smith, H. D., Ii. (2004). The Trouble with Terasaka: The Forty-Seventh Ronin and the Chushingura Imagination. J Apan Review, 16, 3–65.

Tochuken, K., & Smith, H. D. (2006). Parting in the Snow at Nanbuzaka, by TōchÅ«ken Kumoemon. Monumenta Nipponica, 61(4), 509–519.
Last edited by kitsuno on January 8th, 2018, 12:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Toranosuke
Archer
Archer
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 4:09 am

December 27th, 2017, 11:50 pm #61

A bit late, perhaps, but I've just happened upon another potentially interesting article: "Restaging the Forty-Seven Rōnin: Performance and Print in Late Eighteenth-Century Japan" by Will Fleming. (https://doi-org.proxy.library.ucsb.edu: ... .2015.0031)
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

January 2nd, 2018, 12:52 am #62


The Revenge of the 47 Ronin
http://samuraipodcast.com/the-revenge-of-the-47-ronin

...And it's live. This one took about 6 weeks of focused work, since I (sort of stupidly) painted myself into a corner promising it at the end of December. That being said, I'm sure there is no other podcast episode in podcast land that covers the 47 gangsters to this level of detail. This episode covers the fiction version, then deconstructs it or examines it up to but not including the punishment portion. That warrants at least another hour of examination in and of itself. So tentatively I'll plan on it being the end of this month, but that might not be enough time (and we have a few other topics available if I don't have this ready by then). As it was, 6 weeks was not enough time to go into the insane level of detail that I originally planned for this episode (but again, it's still super detailed), but on the bright side, it looks like there will be content left over for Patreon patrons, so that's something. This one took me about 2.5 hours to record, and maybe 5-6 hours of editing, so that's an improvement over the monster that was the Seppuku episode.
47_Ronin_Revenge.png
Last edited by kitsuno on January 2nd, 2018, 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

January 29th, 2018, 7:28 pm #63

Expect the next episode out at the end of this month, featuring guest host Saru, who talks about the facts and fictions of Uesugi Kenshin.

Also, don't forget - feedback, feedback, feedback. As a producer of content, I find feedback extremely important and useful (as well as an indication that people are actually listening and give a crap :P) . So as always, let me know what you think of whatever episode you happened to be listening to.
Last edited by kitsuno on January 29th, 2018, 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

ltdomer98
Izumi no kami
Izumi no kami
ltdomer98
Izumi no kami
Izumi no kami
Joined: March 8th, 2015, 5:42 pm

January 29th, 2018, 8:30 pm #64

No more of that Nate guy. He puts me to sleep every time.

Daijo Daijin Emeritus
退職させていただきます。
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

January 29th, 2018, 10:40 pm #65

I think my favorite nonsense feedback was by someone offended that we'd dare to shred respected scholar Noel Perrin, and went something along the lines of "It's good, but sometimes you have to get past that "The young know it all" attitude". Oh, if only they knew how old we are. You don't really get anywhere by holding on to bad ideas, Perrin-lover.
Last edited by kitsuno on January 29th, 2018, 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

January 31st, 2018, 11:44 pm #66




EP139 Uesugi Kenshin Facts and Fictions - Guest Host Scott Patrick
http://samuraipodcast.com/ep139-uesugi- ... tt-patrick

Scott does what the title says, talks about some facts and fiction about Uesugi Kenshin.

Please direct all questions, comments, and feedback to Saru :lulz:
uesugi_kenshin.png
Last edited by kitsuno on January 31st, 2018, 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

February 28th, 2018, 5:40 am #67

The newest episode is now available to Patreon supporters, and will be live on 3/1.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

April 4th, 2018, 7:14 am #68

I keep forgetting to update this thread, I'll have to work on that going forward. Anyway, voila:



EP141 Discussion of the Nara Period Military Defense Statute P2


http://samuraipodcast.com/ep141-discuss ... statute-p2
taihocodes.png
Last edited by kitsuno on April 4th, 2018, 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

April 29th, 2018, 2:08 am #69

The next episode of the podcast will be available to Patreon patrons tomorrow around 11AM PST, and to the rest of the planet on May 1st.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

May 1st, 2018, 7:55 pm #70



EP142 Talking Tea and Philosophy with Dr. Jesse Workman

http://samuraipodcast.com/ep142-talking ... se-workman

In this episode I talk to philosopher Dr. Jesse Workman about the history and philosophy of Japanese tea, and its influence on Western philosophy as well as it's dark role in the Japanese imperial government leading up to WWII. I'll probably be doing a detailed history of tea here at some point, so this was a jumping off point to start the tea theme. This one is mainly a conversational mix of history and philosophy.
tea.png
Last edited by kitsuno on May 1st, 2018, 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Sam
Artisan
Artisan
Sam
Artisan
Artisan
Joined: June 14th, 2017, 3:39 am

May 2nd, 2018, 1:22 am #71

I just started listening and I wanted to let you know that China History Podcast did a 10-episode long series on history of tea (link goes to playlist of all episodes). He did not cover Japan of course but some of his references might be of interest to you (they reference would be listed in each episode page, here is a link to the first episode: CHP 140: The History of Tea - Part 1).
Quote
Like
Share

Sam
Artisan
Artisan
Sam
Artisan
Artisan
Joined: June 14th, 2017, 3:39 am

May 2nd, 2018, 4:49 am #72

I don't expect people involved in tea ceremonies to atone for their past, after all Zen Buddhism itself was used by and for the Japanese military, see Zen at War by Brian Victoria.
One last post on the issue of nationalism as a form of religion: the case of Jehovah's Witnesses's in United States in 1930s and 1940s is a really neat historical example. The Jehovah's Witnesses considered saluting the flag as a form of idolatry and refused to do so, in those days that created a great deal of hostility and prosecution which got a lot worse after Supreme Court's unfortunate decision in Minersville School District v. Gobitis (it was reversed shortly afterwards).
Last edited by Sam on May 2nd, 2018, 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

June 7th, 2018, 3:28 am #73



The Early History of Japanese Tea - Tales of the Samurai #3

http://samuraipodcast.com/the-early-his ... -samurai-3

In this episode we go way back to the early history of tea in Japan; where it came from, who brought it, who drank it, and why. We look at tea's trip from Buddhist medicine to a fancy high-end foreign drink, to a drink for the masses, and how it got from the monastery to the millet grubbing dirt farmers. Basically tea's ancient history through the 15th century.
TeaHistory.png
Last edited by kitsuno on June 7th, 2018, 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

July 7th, 2018, 3:48 am #74

Next episode will be a two-parter with Maikeruart and Wicked L where we reveal the TOP 10 SAMURAI FILMS OF ALL TIME. Epic stuff. I'll try to have part one out by Tuesday. Unfortunately the recording cut off, so we have to do a little re-recording of the last 20-30 minutes of part 2, but otherwise, it was a blast.
Quote
Like
Share

kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
kitsuno
Izu no kami
Izu no kami
Joined: March 5th, 2015, 3:09 am

July 23rd, 2018, 1:57 am #75

Top Ten Samurai Films of All Time (Part 1) is now live for Patreon subscribers, and will be going live in 48 hours for the rest of the world.

SamuraiFilmsP1.png
Last edited by kitsuno on July 23rd, 2018, 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share