FairladyZ2005
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FairladyZ2005
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Joined: Jun 18th, '14, 16:30

Aug 10th, '18, 10:32 #9776

Engage sarcasm mode: But how can a man's story arc be about getting out of an abusive relationship, falling in true love, wanting to get married, and have children? How dare he be defined by a woman!  How dare GRRM make a non-Stark the romantic lead with an ugly woman!
"Well, you know old stories are rather like old friends. Every once in a while you have to drop in on them, just to see how they're doing." GRRM, "Masques," Beauty and the Beast
Keep calm and J/B on!
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AlwaysBeYours
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Joined: Oct 11th, '17, 18:11

Aug 10th, '18, 11:07 #9777

Yes, I think he is important, or I believe he is. It just his arc the last few seasons that is unexisted. What's he going to do next season?have sex with Brienne, die?He probably doesn't even get to kill Cersei
Yes, because all Jaime is good for is killing Cersei and he won't even be able to do that next season *rollseyes*

That thread was sort of funny, but also infuriating. Why bother giving a character multiple POV chapters if they're not going to be important in the end game? I get that maybe Brienne won't be as pivotal in the story as we want her to be or think she could be, but she's certainly going to be more than what a lot of people think. I'm eager to see where D&D have taken her and Jaime's characters, both as a pair and on individual levels, because that's what they are, individuals who are both important to the end of the story as a whole, and each other's arcs.
"It's a long way to King's Landing. Might as well get to know one another. Have you known many men? I suppose not. Women? Horses?"
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koops
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Aug 10th, '18, 11:16 #9778

The thing is that these people just don't want to think about stuff that doesn't fit in their preconceived notions, and therefore dismiss any argument to the contrary.

What has the fact that Brienne and Jaime's arcs stalled in the last two seasons to do with them not being important? I think, if anything, the fact that they stalled them but kept them alive until the very end means they ARE relevant for the THE WAR FOR JON'S DICK (TM TeamGwenee). Otherwise they would have killed them off ages ago. MELISANDRE'S BOYTOY was absent entirely for an entire season. Is he also irrelevant? The Hound was missing for an entire season. Is he also irrelevant? And why do people just assume that because THEY think Jaime is going to die, then his arc cannot possibly amount to much? Maybe ask yourself... maybe if it looks like he's been kept alive this long but hasn't done much he WON'T die after all? Maybe there are other options? 

It reminds me of this meme:




ETA: It's obvious to everyone that Brienne won't be as crucial to the THE WAR FOR JON'S DICK (TM TeamGwenee) as the blocks of boring, and nobody is claiming that she is. But this story has a POV structure for a reason. George himself said that if he were to write only J.on and D.any, you would miss out on 80-90% of the story. All the POV characters have a role to play, they're not plot devices. 
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ballade
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Aug 10th, '18, 15:46 #9779

Erin wrote:
Well because I see brienne's arc as some kind of sideshow event rather than being a main player. People can claim jaime and Brienne are of equal importance but that simply is not the case. If you can remove a character and it changes nothing to the story, that character is nothing more than a MacGuffin. Brienne can be replaced with another object, jaime cannot.

So given I see beienne as a MacGuffin, I don't think jaime's influence on her is relevant.

Now you saying he is moved by love demonstrates my point that his character is reduced to who he has feelings towards and he is simply a better person because of his feelings towards Brienne. It devalues his character to be motivated by only romantic love. It becomes it is all cocks in the end.
She really doesn't have an arc, she is a plot device.
Brienne is a MacGuffin and has no arc.
Brienne is a POV character - Stannis and Fan favorites Robb and Sandor are not - so if Brienne has no arc, then Stannis and Robb and Sandor are definitely even more McGuffins! Also, if these are GINGERPEST fans then they really need to sit the fuck down because that old man is a fifth tier character in the book! Ugh!
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Mikki
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Aug 10th, '18, 16:46 #9780

What a giant load of horseshit.

This ranks right up there with “Romance between Jaime and Brienne would ruin their friendship. They respect each other. They don’t love each other.”
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating. - Ashleigh Brilliant
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TeamGwenee
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Aug 10th, '18, 20:00 #9781

Random thought regarding Jaime criticsism. Some fans have argued that Jaime restoring peace to the Riverlands means nothing because he is doing so under Lannister authority and is therefore part of and upholding and immoral regime.
What they forget is that Westeros is a feudal society and even the Starks and Tullies are feudal lords, and feudalism is an inherently immoral regime.
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FairladyZ2005
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FairladyZ2005
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Aug 10th, '18, 21:35 #9782

Stark pot meet Lannister kettle. 
"Well, you know old stories are rather like old friends. Every once in a while you have to drop in on them, just to see how they're doing." GRRM, "Masques," Beauty and the Beast
Keep calm and J/B on!
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TeamGwenee
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Aug 10th, '18, 21:49 #9783

Also, two new anti-Jaime posts on freefolk. They know what is coming in season 8. Canon Jaime/Brienne. Jaime as a hero. They are starting to sweat.
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FairladyZ2005
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FairladyZ2005
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Aug 10th, '18, 22:12 #9784

My advice to the idiots on Freefolk:

"Don't panic and grab your towel." - Douglas Adams

Cuz they will be sweating a lot. And panicking only makes them look like more of an idiot. Then again, their panicking is amusing so it's all the same to us.
Last edited by FairladyZ2005 on Aug 11th, '18, 12:52, edited 2 times in total.
"Well, you know old stories are rather like old friends. Every once in a while you have to drop in on them, just to see how they're doing." GRRM, "Masques," Beauty and the Beast
Keep calm and J/B on!
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WackyGoofball
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Aug 10th, '18, 22:21 #9785

TeamGwenee wrote: Random thought regarding Jaime criticsism. Some fans have argued that Jaime restoring peace to the Riverlands means nothing because he is doing so under Lannister authority and is therefore part of and upholding and immoral regime.
What they forget is that Westeros is a feudal society and even the Starks and Tullies are feudal lords, and feudalism is an inherently immoral regime.
Preach. Also, by that same logic, people should be much more inclined to lose their shit over the Starks re-establishing their authoritaaaaahhhh in the North and assume leadership over those who have previously gotten pretty harmed under their previous Kingindanorf. I am not saying that Robb led a regime, but I will say that no matter the fanboy's lament, the Northern lords had any reason not to want to follow Jo.nny Boi and Salsa as representatives of the family who kind of left them when they were in need. They got harmed thanks to their feudal lords following through with their own endeavors (and funking up alliances because of true wuv). 

Like, from the commoners' experience... I don't think they much care about whether the system by which their loved ones came to lose their lives was corrupted in some way or following a glorious purpose. In either case, their people suffered or died. Thanks to others and their quarrels.

I honestly think that from the peoples' perspective, they care much more whether tehy live and under what conditions, at the present time, than they do about whether a lion banner hangs up at Riverrun. Even more so after those guys had to suffer hunger coz someone didn't wanna abandon his ancestral home (in the books, at least). Like, if we wanna get outraged and nullify efforts to do damage control, we should consider teh positions of those affected most, and thatis the smallfolk etc. whose literal lives are on the line rather than one person's honor or entitlement to a castle or not.

Also also, I just don't get teh logic of "so long you are part of a corrupted system, your efforts to offer relief don't matter." Jaime obviously did not follow through with what the corrupted system (Cersei et al.) demanded. He took the castle without considerable bloodshed. He acted in his own spirit, which was contrary to what the corrupted system would have demanded. How does that not count? Why does the result of "bloodless siege" not count when the overall goal is "bloodless siege"?

I mean... I seriously don't want to draw parallels between that on a historical basis, but I just lack a fictional example because it's late and my brain won't function, but if we apply the same logic, then any efforts of a guy like Oskar Schindler to save innocent lives woudln't matter because he still operated within the horrendous, corrupt regime (again, I seriously don't want to draw parallels to Nazi Germany or that, but really just take the trajectory here for a moment). I just don't get that way of thinking. If you actively do something to help people, prevent their deaths, it shoudln't nullify his efforts if that person/character really tries and even succeeds.

Oh wait, now I can come up with a fictional example: If we think of Lannisters as a regime, then I think Stannis also led a religiously motivated regime where political opponents were killed off and burned at the literal stake. Davos has actively disobeyed him while also being part of the system and actively supporting him on other endeavors. Do we now condemn Davos for that and say that none of what he did to help other people makes a difference? I can't seem to detect that with the fanboys (though of course, they love the Mannis, so there is that).

In the end, people will simply use any line of excuse to say that Jaime can't and is not operating outside the "regime" of Cersei et al. becasue tehy are too idly focused on valonqaur tragic!beautiful!murder!suicide!. Because that is the theory they chose to believe in. Since then, tehy have read Jaime's arc against that background, treating it as the fact underlying his entire narrative. If he is destined to be forever be tied to Cersei in that way, then it makes sense from the dudebro's mind that he can't be thought outside the Cersei et al. regime.

However, that ignores... all character develpment Jaime made, books and show alike... and it ignores teh very simple and undeniable circumstance that Jaime, upon his return to King's Landing, has been opposing the "regime" in a manifold of ways. He held on to his promise to save Sansa (by assigning the task to Brienne eventually and providing the infrastructure for her to do it via wedding armor, wedding sword, and for the books, permission letter). When Tyrion was charged for Joffrey's murder, he was the one who tried to reason with Cersei again and again not to do it. He actively undermined his father by breaking Tyrion out of prison. He first refused to become heir and only ever accepted it to spare Tyrion (though it didn't come to that because of a big speech). He took Riverrun without bloodshed even though the order was another one, etc., etc. Like, how comes none of that counts as opposition? Right, because Lannisters are evil, which is why Jaime can never do any good because he can't stop being a Lannister...

... wasn't there a scene at the end when he rode off from King's Landing without Lannister armor? I seem to recall something... supposedly had some kind of symbolic meaning... like... could have a bigger implication. But as is known fact, Jaime will valonqar the hell out of Cersei and thus bring down the system of Cersei et al., which means he has to off himself thereafter. Makes total sense.

*sarcasm off*

They tire me so in their foolery.
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TeamGwenee
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Joined: Oct 18th, '17, 17:35

Aug 10th, '18, 22:26 #9786

And just throwing it out there, when you look at characters like Robb Stark, Jaime has done far more to help and save lives whereas Robb's only actions in the series; whatever his motivations, was to partake in a war that destroyed the lives of thousands. On the grand scheme of things, Jaime has done a mix of bad and good. Look at the impact Robb has left on Westeros and he just screwed a bunch of people over. 
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timetravelingwritr
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Aug 11th, '18, 01:28 #9787

If you guys are talking about the same post i just read on tumblr, i'd add Jaime was in a loose-loose situation at the Riverlands (and even before). He stays in the system and tries to oppose it in the ways he knows, he's hypocrital, a bad guy and an oathbreaker (for Catelyn's vow). He suddenly leaves Kingslanding to protest the system and be able to do what he wants to achieve, he's an oathbreaker and still a bad guy. Let's not forget he swore an oath to protect the crown, even though he's not in the Kingsguard anymore. And that his kids are still in Kingslanding at this point and his son KING ZOMMEN is the King. Also, he's completely blinded by his love for Cersei. He can't really leave.

I mean, what would they have Jaime do instead?
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FairladyZ2005
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Aug 11th, '18, 04:04 #9788

Damned if he does, damned  if he doesn't. It's the story of Jaime's life. 
"Well, you know old stories are rather like old friends. Every once in a while you have to drop in on them, just to see how they're doing." GRRM, "Masques," Beauty and the Beast
Keep calm and J/B on!
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julieoftarth
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Joined: Oct 28th, '17, 01:55

Aug 11th, '18, 14:52 #9789

This will only intensify as the season gets closer and they realize the story is not goin the way they want.

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ballade
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Aug 12th, '18, 00:43 #9790

So if Jaime is not really honorable because he’s still preserving the rule of his family when he negotiates the end of the siege of Riverrun ... why are Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne regarded as paragons of honor and righteousness for upholding the rule of a sadistic madman (and rapist) in the person of Aerys Targaryen? And if the argument is that Cersei is an illegitimate ruler, then why is it ok for PA INGALLS Stark, epitome of all things virtuous and righteous, to support the usurper Robert Baratheon? When you think about it ... it kind of seems like the argument is that Jaime is wrong (always) because he’s Jaime Lannister.
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Cerenna of Highgarden
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Aug 12th, '18, 01:33 #9791

ballade wrote: So if Jaime is not really honorable because he’s still preserving the rule of his family when he negotiates the end of the siege of Riverrun ... why are Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne regarded as paragons of honor and righteousness for upholding the rule of a sadistic madman (and rapist) in the person of Aerys Targaryen? And if the argument is that Cersei is an illegitimate ruler, then why is it ok for PA INGALLS Stark, epitome of all things virtuous and righteous, to support the usurper Robert Baratheon? When you think about it ... it kind of seems like the argument is that Jaime is wrong (always) because he’s Jaime Lannister.
So much double standards in the GOT/ASOIAF fandom, istg. I wonder if they ever thought to look at their favourites in the same way that they judge Jaime?  I suspect they wouldn't like the results and I think they know that deep down so they vehemently refuse to admit to that.😕

Bloody hypocrites...
"That is sad. Though perhaps it's for the best. The whole notion of marriage seems to confuse you"
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Erin
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Aug 14th, '18, 01:44 #9792

It's a slow day. What to do, what to do? I know! How about having another "Jaime Lannister is problematic" circlejerk over on freefolk for the billionth time, with the usual suspects.

ETA: NIK GLEEFULLY WEARING HIS TINY HAT. Didn't realize reddit links are automatically embedded. Now I don't have to waste time copying and pasting their drivel.

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Mikki
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Aug 14th, '18, 02:20 #9793

Yet another Cersei stan trying to prove Jamie is just as awful as Cersei is so that they deserve each other.
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating. - Ashleigh Brilliant
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timetravelingwritr
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Aug 14th, '18, 02:56 #9794

Never mind he was a 16 yo boy that had been watching people burns and enduring a mad king for YEARS, left ALONE to protect the king and its wife/kids. Never mind there were already a history of tension between Starks and Lannisters and that no matter what jaime had said, PA INGALLS would have judged him (jaime could have tried telling PA INGALLS, i guess but he had his reasons and let's not forget he was a teenage boy). Arh. These freefolk people can be so annoying.
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NamelessPasserby
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Joined: Jun 19th, '14, 05:26

Aug 14th, '18, 04:43 #9795

That post is just....



I'm looking forward to seeing the Jaime haters and Cersei stans self combust next season when: B.ran forgives Jaime, Jaime completely aligns himself with the north against Cersei's army, bangs Brienne ofc 😚, and completes his redemption arc by finally being recognized as a hero of Westeros after being looked down upon as the Kingslayer for so long.

Also the loonies seem to have forgotten this scene from season 4 clearly setting up Jaime to become a hero in the end:
 


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TeamGwenee
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Aug 14th, '18, 04:50 #9796

Season eights is coming. Jaime will prove himself a hero, PA INGALLS Stark will be proven wrong, Cersei will be proven a coward, and there is nothing they can do about it. They are panicking.
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Mikki
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Aug 14th, '18, 15:55 #9797

It amuses me how the Cersei-stans and Starkists have to paint Jaime as evil in order to support their favs.

I particularly loathe the Stark Apologist crew.
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating. - Ashleigh Brilliant
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TeamGwenee
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Aug 14th, '18, 16:08 #9798

I was thinking earlier about how in terms of their impact on Westeros, the Starks and Tullies are probably just as much villains as the Lannisters, especially Jaime. They use excuses like their 'family honour' being insulted in order to go to war and destroy the lives of thousands, when they should put on their big boy knickers and suck it up. If the current king was so terrible, they should have hired a faceless man or something like that. But for some reason killing one person behind the scenes is worse than destroying thousands of lives.

On a personal level people may find Starks and Tullies more likable, but up till now their impact on Westeros has been equally negative to the Lannisters. They all went to war because they had been insulted or had been threatened, and because their 'honour' demanded it. And during peace all of their kingdoms were realtively prosperous. So overall no house was better than the other.

And Jaime alone has actually personally saved thousands of people, both in preventing KL being blown up and in making the trebuchet threat. I don't buy arguemnts that the Stark are super noble and wonderful, because they probably are by Westeros standards. But Westeros morality is a sack of shit, so if I judge the characters by how many people who are DISCO because of them and those who are alive, the numbers speak for themselves. 
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Mikki
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Aug 14th, '18, 17:03 #9799

I just read through that entire thread and what a steaming pile of shit. I hate to agree with KaySen, but the OP’s argument is circular.
My sources are unreliable, but their information is fascinating. - Ashleigh Brilliant
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julieoftarth
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Aug 14th, '18, 17:06 #9800

I'm so glad you guys are talking about this. Lately I've seen more and more posts calling people stupid or naive for thinking Jaime is a good man. I know Jaime is not perfect, but he's kind of in the grey area with MOST GoT characters, including people deemed the good guys. I agree with TG above that there are other families in Westeros that make just as many questionable decisions. 
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