Moderator: Eastern Nat

Joined: 4:34 PM - Oct 12, 2016

9:06 PM - Jul 03, 2018 #11

Schachrechner outlined a number of my initial issues with this proposal quite well, and I agree with him on most of the points. There are a number of good suggestions (like taking out some of the longer direct services where they don't need to be direct), but a number of them are rather thoughtless, and the very first thing that comes to me is having Darndale being served by a Drumcondra corridor route (A1)! I also don't agree with having the Airport as the interchange point for the 282 - the Airport is a poor interchange location because of the amount of time it takes to get from the N1 to the terminals and out back onto the N1.
While I'm on the topic of something like the proposed rte 60, I suppose they intended that to be a service that works sectionally. @Schachrechner, you commented on it as an end-to-end connection of city to Airport, while you should see it for the different sections - it's literally the current 29a up to Baldoyle with the 32 attached onwards to Malahide, but it also offers connections from Malahide to Swords and airport. In saying that, I do agree that it appears to be an unnecessary overkill to join the 102, 32, and 29a into a single route.

One of my major concerns is the infrastructure for the transfers. A high number of transfers are being suggested in places where the infrastructure is not pedestrian-friendly (for example, half the locations along Malahide Road). I'm only tossing out random thoughts right now, but over the next number of weeks I will be writing a full response and commentary on the suggested changes, accounting for such aspects as: infrastructure, transfer friendliness, what would be required of the operators for this to even remotely function, and the more superficial aspects of numbering and signage. I will publish the scan here eventually for all interested.

Overall it's clear the new network was designed by an American consultancy - the States are notorious for having grid-based cities where frequent and straight services are easy to achieve, but often also the most suitable (or see Barcelona) because circuitious patterns would end up just going back and forth. I'm curious as to what the leading Polish public transport consultant would have to say on Dublin instead...
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Joined: 9:51 PM - Mar 25, 2016

11:35 PM - Jul 03, 2018 #12

bk wrote:
Schachrechner wrote: 41-43 Swords Road/Malahide Road
What about the 11, 13, 16, so? All on the Swords road.

There might of once been some logic to the current numbering, but it is certainly long gone now.

It certainly not perfect, but I like the new "numbering". Advertising core corridors A to G helps people better visualise the core routes, like they are Luas lines or DART lines.
The 11 was one of the Celtic Tiger routes so it was numbered what was available, it also spends a very small proportion of it's time on the Swords Road, the 16 is linked with the 14 on both ends. There are a few holes in the proposed numbering system as-well, and when the routws are altered or changed in the future, it'll be harder to retain the initially set patterns.

One of the main things I don't understand is why if they are going on a letter and number based routing system, they are not representating Expresso services with a X. Which currently makes a lot of sense, way more than having the Express services be 300+. It seems here that the consultants are so keen on changing absolutely everything about the service, that they will change the numbering and lettering when there is no need, just so it is different. Probably so they can use it for futute marketing purposes.

I also don't agree that the logic is long gone here, moat routes that serve the same areas are in consecutive order of eachother. The new plans letter and number system isn't that much simpler than the current one.


Last edited by Schachrechner on 11:35 PM - Jul 03, 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: 9:51 PM - Mar 25, 2016

11:44 PM - Jul 03, 2018 #13

Regarding the 60 I agree that is overkill, as the bus will basically unloads and loads twice and would be two routes operating as one practically. That was what I meant. Seeing that under the plan buses to the city are limited, it would make more sense to link routes to the City Centre that would actually be used to get there.



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Joined: 6:07 PM - Feb 13, 2010

8:21 AM - Jul 04, 2018 #14

The 100's are Bus Eireann services...otherwise you'd have duplication like now....that's why no 100's in the plan!!.
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Joined: 9:51 PM - Mar 25, 2016

8:35 AM - Jul 04, 2018 #15

Ah yeah I was thinking that, I was meant to mention that. That would make sense,

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bk
Joined: 9:49 AM - Jul 04, 2012

6:45 PM - Jul 04, 2018 #16

Let me give you an example, I live near Drumcondra so I know that the 11, 13, 16, 41, etc. can all get me there from town.

But sometimes I've friends come and visit and they ask what bus to get from town and I tell them the above and I watch their face look at me in horror of confusion. I usually tell them just get the 16 and then they are happy. Even though I know they might be standing at the 16 stop waiting for a 16 while a 11, 13, etc. are wizing by!

Sorry, it doesn't make sense. Now I'll be able to tell them just get any A bus. That is much simpler and more straightforward to explain and understand.

Then there is the issue that 11, 13, 16, 41, etc. don't operate from the same stops in town! Stupid. It seems under the new plan, all A buses will operate from the same A stops in town. Again makes more sense. For me just go to the closest A stop and get any A bus that passes by.

Finally it seems all buses on the same lettered corridor will be scheduled as one to avoid bunching. So where as at the moment the 11, 13, 16, etc. are scheduled relatively independently and thus you can have a 13 and 16 scheduled to leave together at the same time and thus bunching from the start.

Under the new plan all the A buses will be scheduled as one route to avoid such bunching. Again makes sense.

Also I have to say the orbital routes are nicely named. N2, N4, N6 are the northern orbital starting with the closest in out. W2, W4 to the West. S2, S4, S6 to the south.

Already from reading these docs, I've a much better understanding of the whole proposed network, then I do of the current bus network despite using it almost daily for the last 15 years!

I realise for Bus Drivers the existing route numbers might make sense and have some history around how they developed. But it just seems like a confusing mess of numbers all over the place for any normal person just using the bus daily in Dublin.

I suspect most Dubliners don't know where the vast majority of routes go outside their own routes and maybe the 16 to the airport. I do believe this will help to get around quicker.
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bk
Joined: 9:49 AM - Jul 04, 2012

6:57 PM - Jul 04, 2018 #17

PiotrSekula wrote: One of my major concerns is the infrastructure for the transfers. A high number of transfers are being suggested in places where the infrastructure is not pedestrian-friendly (for example, half the locations along Malahide Road). I'm only tossing out random thoughts right now, but over the next number of weeks I will be writing a full response and commentary on the suggested changes, accounting for such aspects as: infrastructure, transfer friendliness, what would be required of the operators for this to even remotely function, and the more superficial aspects of numbering and signage. I will publish the scan here eventually for all interested.
BTW I was just watching the presentation by Walker and the NTA guy to DCC. All very interesting.
The NTA guy was stressing that they have a budget of 2 billion to throw at all of this! That they where in talks with Dublin Bus on how many new buses they will need and they will supply whatever is needed.
He also stressed that they will be major road works to help with this. Including moving bus stops closer to junctions, adding shelters, improving pedestrian crossings and traffic lights to make these interchanges better and easier.
You should watch that video and also read through all of the 160 pages of the report! It really does go far beyond what some people are supposing here and simple renumbering.
For instance an important point is that all the core lettered routes will each be scheduled as one, rather then separate routes as they currently are and that they will share bus stops. So it isn't just a simple renumbering. It is a fundamental merging and reorganising of routes.
I'm really quiet impressed with what they are trying to do here. I'd say keep an open mind and read all the docs.
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Joined: 4:34 PM - Oct 12, 2016

7:30 PM - Jul 04, 2018 #18

bk wrote:
PiotrSekula wrote: One of my major concerns is the infrastructure for the transfers. A high number of transfers are being suggested in places where the infrastructure is not pedestrian-friendly (for example, half the locations along Malahide Road). I'm only tossing out random thoughts right now, but over the next number of weeks I will be writing a full response and commentary on the suggested changes, accounting for such aspects as: infrastructure, transfer friendliness, what would be required of the operators for this to even remotely function, and the more superficial aspects of numbering and signage. I will publish the scan here eventually for all interested.
BTW I was just watching the presentation by Walker and the NTA guy to DCC. All very interesting.
The NTA guy was stressing that they have a budget of 2 billion to throw at all of this! That they where in talks with Dublin Bus on how many new buses they will need and they will supply whatever is needed.
He also stressed that they will be major road works to help with this. Including moving bus stops closer to junctions, adding shelters, improving pedestrian crossings and traffic lights to make these interchanges better and easier.
You should watch that video and also read through all of the 160 pages of the report! It really does go far beyond what some people are supposing here and simple renumbering.
For instance an important point is that all the core lettered routes will each be scheduled as one, rather then separate routes as they currently are and that they will share bus stops. So it isn't just a simple renumbering. It is a fundamental merging and reorganising of routes.
I'm really quiet impressed with what they are trying to do here. I'd say keep an open mind and read all the docs.
Oh I'm quite open to the project, but I'm also very critical of it. I have also read it more or less entirely by now.
The biggest irony for me so far is that I was thinking of Donnycarney church as one of the less friendly interchange spots - yet it's actually one of the examples used in the document itself! (Once I got to that page, that is to say - the documents are really heavy and take their time to load...) At the very least the project actually realizes what needs to be done for it to work, but there is so much more that DB and NTA need to realize - for example, how to construct synchronized schedules for the core routes... because they failed disastrously on the 7/a.

Either way, I'm typing away here, let's see where that brings me.
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Joined: 9:51 PM - Mar 25, 2016

7:48 PM - Jul 04, 2018 #19

Okay, but at the same time it can be achieved through numbering, this letter based system isn't used a lot in other European Cities. The numbering is as logical as Dublin Bus's Current system, yes the 60's serve North East Dublin, although the 63 does go out all the way to Citywest for a rather unkown reason. While it may be logical now, when they change routes which will happen, itbwas only 6 years ago Network Direct happened, the flow of routes will be lost.

Regarding bunching I agree it is a serious issue and the current timetables don't tackle the problem very well. However, the new Spines, are not all one route, as the C family all leave from different areas at different times, and bunching will still occur.

Don't get me wrong there are some aspects of the project I like, linking buses to trains, the introduction of a circular route in town, although I'm not fond of it being called an O and it might be confused for a 0. however there are some aspects that don't work whatsoever and have been overlooked. The main problem with this project is it takes it to the other extreme, where there are simply too many orbital routes. But, there is no point in implementing a half fit for purpose project as then, it wouldn't change much from how things are now.





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bk
Joined: 9:49 AM - Jul 04, 2012

8:55 PM - Jul 04, 2018 #20

Take a look at this screen shot from the report about these core spine routes. I have to say I really like these proposed new bus stops signs. It makes way more sense then seemingly random 1, 11, 13, 16, 41 littered across multiple bus stops across O'Connell St:



Now think what the above sign would look like Northbound.

- All A Buses to Whitehall
- A1 to Clongriffin
- A2 to Airport
- A3 to DCU
- A4 to Swords

All nice solid, well understood destinations.
Last edited by bk on 9:02 PM - Jul 04, 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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