Side windows- moving on from the P-47, to the P-40

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Side windows- moving on from the P-47, to the P-40

Joined: February 27th, 2005, 1:47 pm

April 6th, 2012, 10:31 pm #1

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



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Joined: January 26th, 2004, 9:36 pm

April 6th, 2012, 11:02 pm #2

The P-40 in the foreground of both of these photos is presenting at a different angle to the viewer than the P-40 in the background. The light source (sun) is reflecting off of both side glazings, but the reflection off of the glazing in the foreground is coming back towards the camera lens while the reflection off of the glazing in the background is not.

It is better to be the stomper rather than the stompee!
It is better to be the Stomper rather than the Stompee!
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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 1:47 pm

April 6th, 2012, 11:09 pm #3

-maybe you're not. Personally although I have really tried to accept it's a refraction thing, on nearly all "formation" type shots, all the aircraft involved usuLLY seem to have the same "opticals."
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Joined: February 25th, 2012, 1:39 am

April 6th, 2012, 11:48 pm #4

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



In the bottom image, the angle of the shadows cast under the spinners, drop tanks and horizontal tailplanes of each aircraft is almost perfectly identical. With the angle of the sun-- the light source-- established as quite similar on each subject, one can predict the reflection of light to also be quite similar, assuming it reflects from a surface of the same color and texture.

In the top image, note the glare produced by the light source appears on the top of the windscreen, which is where glare should appear when the light source is generally overhead. If the flat panel of the rear panel were glaring, it would be highly likely that the flat sides of the hood and the windscreen would also be glaring, and this would in turn suggest the light source was low in the sky, behind the photographer's back.

It is difficult for me to conclude anything other than the two areas are different colors. I have seen a great deal of evidence that Warhawks were painted willy-nilly, and these photgraphs are fine examples. Thanks for posting them.
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Joined: March 25th, 2005, 9:31 pm

April 7th, 2012, 12:10 am #5

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



Just reflection.

Folks can photo analyze all they want.

No question in my mind that it's a simple optical effect caused by reflection.
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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 1:13 am

April 7th, 2012, 12:24 am #6

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



Fellas,
Take a good look and see where the shadows are falling. Look at the tail and see where the shadows are? Now take a closer look at the framing on the P-40 close to the camera and you can see the shadow for the side window frame.
There is NO reflection doing toward the camera that would change this color drasticly and you can even see this in the top image as well. If it was, then you would see more saturation of the fuselage it's self and this is not occuring.
To me the P-40 close to the camera has been repainted inside the side glass area for whatever reason.

Regards,
Brandon S.
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Joined: February 28th, 2005, 4:05 pm

April 7th, 2012, 1:36 am #7

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



Hi Rich,

I've got those photos, but never spent much time looking at the colors before. (I'm only working on the long-nosed P-40s and the Ds and Es at the moment.)

I believe you're on to something.

41-14102 was ordered as a simple P-40F; the other three aircraft were ordered as P-40F-15s. That contract (AC-18685) included some aircraft destined for the AAF and others for the RAF. The common identification lighting system was not yet fully in place when these aircraft were being built. Two of the aircraft (208 and 102) have the British-style id light above the rear-view windows, one (106) does not. The two with the British lights ALSO have the lighter fuselage color beneath the rear-view glass.

Hypothesis? Two of the aircraft were originally destined for RAF Lend-Lease orders, and began life with Middlestone painted behind the cockpit. After the glazing was installed, the aircraft were diverted to AAF orders, at which time the remaining exterior areas were painted OD/Neutral Gray.

Proof? It will take a day at the Archives reading the change orders for contract AC-18685 - if the aircraft were ordered for the RAF then diverted, we have a good indication what that lighter shade was. If they were AAF orders from the beginning, well, there has to be another explanation. I'm booked up on other research for several months, but if no one else gets into those contract files, I'll have a look in September.

Cheers,



Dana
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Joined: March 2nd, 2005, 12:32 am

April 7th, 2012, 2:02 am #8

My original opinion was reflection, but the top photo shows the shadows of the frames, which would be invisible were the sun reflecting off the glass. Your explanation is most plausible. It sure isn't an interior color as some would suggest. Hal Sr
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Joined: February 18th, 2006, 2:30 pm

April 7th, 2012, 4:10 am #9

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



Beautiful photos. nice reference too.
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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 1:47 pm

April 7th, 2012, 7:14 am #10

This post is not an attempt to wind anyone up, just some interesting observations from many wasted hours of internet browsing.
Now many of us understand the arguments both for and against the reasoning behind why modelers should just "go with the flow" and accept certain "standards" on these arguments, but while looking around for some P-40 stuff stumbled across some photos by accident which seem to force certain issues.

There are quite a few photos of Curtiss P-40 series fighters which "appear" to show much lighter colour "side window" areas. Quite frankly they really aren't worth posting as I DONT want to start any grief.

However, I stumbled across these two, which are extremely interesting, as they present with well lit photo fields, and in both cases include a "test subject" in the same frame. What makes it even more interesting is the closeness of the serial numbers, 119821 & 119825!



-photos are amazing things, I have been looking at these for hours, and only just noticed the two B-25s (?) in the background of the second one!
Last edited by RacerRich on April 7th, 2012, 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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