RA-5C, One Last Time

RA-5C, One Last Time

Joined: April 27th, 2005, 7:47 pm

November 9th, 2011, 2:17 am #1

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I think I finally got it. Unfortuneately, the measurements I took in person on my road trip to PAX did not measure this exact thing, oh well... I promise, after this, I will let it go and just build the model.

Consider these images:


The topside image provides the view of the difference that is the easiest to see. I added a couple lines to the image to highlight the issue. The red line follows the actual crease line on the Vigilante. The black line approximates the same line on the Trumpeter kit parts. The basic issue is this -- the cockpit glass in the kit for the front cockpit and windscreen is too wide. On the real aircraft, the cockpit glass is narrower with the fuselage sides sloping in to meet the glass. The "crease" is the line where the sloping fuselage side meets the rounded bow of the cockpit glass.

To quantify the width difference, I did some detail measurements on the kit pieces and the images I took at PAX of the real RA-5C. On the model, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 73% of the total width of the fuselage. On the real RA-5C, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 64% of the total width of the fuselage. This makes the clear glass portion of the model pieces too wide by about 0.1 inches or almost five scale inches.

I got lucky when I was at PAX for the air show earlier this year. The sun position was striaght up, relative to the Vigilante nose. Thus the shadows highlighted the contours very well. Note the shadow line in the side view image. The fuselage sides start sloping inward about half way up the side (where the shadow line is). The kit fuselage sides come straight up almost to the canopy glass before they start sloping in. The difference makes the kit cockpit glass too wide and squashed looking. The kit canopy glass is almost circular in cross-section, where it shound come to more of a bowed peak at the center (see the head-on image). This also makes the fusleage sides more "boxy" with flat slab sides where there should be a rounding.

This is where I started realizing that Cutting Edge had the right idea. The only real fix to this would be a whole new forward fuselage. Unfortuneately, Cutting Edge's pieces simply added the "crease" to the kit parts without really changing the canopy width, thus not really adressing the true issue with the forward fuselage.

Having gotten to the point where I was finally seeing the issue that caused the big stir ten years ago when the Trumpeter kit was released, I was left with deciding what to do about it. Simply adding the "crease" is not the issue. That is what Cutting Edge did. Reluctantly, I have decided that I am not going to re-invent the whole forward fuselage. All this research and road-tripping has brought me full circle to the point that I am going to just build the kit's forward fuselage as provided in the kit. Without coming up with the narrower canopies, I am not going to fix the problems of the kit.



<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
Last edited by DWAungst on November 9th, 2011, 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 6th, 2005, 7:44 am

November 9th, 2011, 2:30 am #2

Sometimes research can lead to paralysis. In this case, you made the right decision...build!
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Joined: October 22nd, 2009, 11:44 pm

November 9th, 2011, 10:00 am #3

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I think I finally got it. Unfortuneately, the measurements I took in person on my road trip to PAX did not measure this exact thing, oh well... I promise, after this, I will let it go and just build the model.

Consider these images:


The topside image provides the view of the difference that is the easiest to see. I added a couple lines to the image to highlight the issue. The red line follows the actual crease line on the Vigilante. The black line approximates the same line on the Trumpeter kit parts. The basic issue is this -- the cockpit glass in the kit for the front cockpit and windscreen is too wide. On the real aircraft, the cockpit glass is narrower with the fuselage sides sloping in to meet the glass. The "crease" is the line where the sloping fuselage side meets the rounded bow of the cockpit glass.

To quantify the width difference, I did some detail measurements on the kit pieces and the images I took at PAX of the real RA-5C. On the model, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 73% of the total width of the fuselage. On the real RA-5C, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 64% of the total width of the fuselage. This makes the clear glass portion of the model pieces too wide by about 0.1 inches or almost five scale inches.

I got lucky when I was at PAX for the air show earlier this year. The sun position was striaght up, relative to the Vigilante nose. Thus the shadows highlighted the contours very well. Note the shadow line in the side view image. The fuselage sides start sloping inward about half way up the side (where the shadow line is). The kit fuselage sides come straight up almost to the canopy glass before they start sloping in. The difference makes the kit cockpit glass too wide and squashed looking. The kit canopy glass is almost circular in cross-section, where it shound come to more of a bowed peak at the center (see the head-on image). This also makes the fusleage sides more "boxy" with flat slab sides where there should be a rounding.

This is where I started realizing that Cutting Edge had the right idea. The only real fix to this would be a whole new forward fuselage. Unfortuneately, Cutting Edge's pieces simply added the "crease" to the kit parts without really changing the canopy width, thus not really adressing the true issue with the forward fuselage.

Having gotten to the point where I was finally seeing the issue that caused the big stir ten years ago when the Trumpeter kit was released, I was left with deciding what to do about it. Simply adding the "crease" is not the issue. That is what Cutting Edge did. Reluctantly, I have decided that I am not going to re-invent the whole forward fuselage. All this research and road-tripping has brought me full circle to the point that I am going to just build the kit's forward fuselage as provided in the kit. Without coming up with the narrower canopies, I am not going to fix the problems of the kit.



<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
the continued and detailed efforts. You did us all a big favor and i, for one, appreciate your efforts and your final decision. Happy modeling,George
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Joined: September 29th, 2005, 9:45 pm

November 9th, 2011, 3:14 pm #4

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I think I finally got it. Unfortuneately, the measurements I took in person on my road trip to PAX did not measure this exact thing, oh well... I promise, after this, I will let it go and just build the model.

Consider these images:


The topside image provides the view of the difference that is the easiest to see. I added a couple lines to the image to highlight the issue. The red line follows the actual crease line on the Vigilante. The black line approximates the same line on the Trumpeter kit parts. The basic issue is this -- the cockpit glass in the kit for the front cockpit and windscreen is too wide. On the real aircraft, the cockpit glass is narrower with the fuselage sides sloping in to meet the glass. The "crease" is the line where the sloping fuselage side meets the rounded bow of the cockpit glass.

To quantify the width difference, I did some detail measurements on the kit pieces and the images I took at PAX of the real RA-5C. On the model, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 73% of the total width of the fuselage. On the real RA-5C, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 64% of the total width of the fuselage. This makes the clear glass portion of the model pieces too wide by about 0.1 inches or almost five scale inches.

I got lucky when I was at PAX for the air show earlier this year. The sun position was striaght up, relative to the Vigilante nose. Thus the shadows highlighted the contours very well. Note the shadow line in the side view image. The fuselage sides start sloping inward about half way up the side (where the shadow line is). The kit fuselage sides come straight up almost to the canopy glass before they start sloping in. The difference makes the kit cockpit glass too wide and squashed looking. The kit canopy glass is almost circular in cross-section, where it shound come to more of a bowed peak at the center (see the head-on image). This also makes the fusleage sides more "boxy" with flat slab sides where there should be a rounding.

This is where I started realizing that Cutting Edge had the right idea. The only real fix to this would be a whole new forward fuselage. Unfortuneately, Cutting Edge's pieces simply added the "crease" to the kit parts without really changing the canopy width, thus not really adressing the true issue with the forward fuselage.

Having gotten to the point where I was finally seeing the issue that caused the big stir ten years ago when the Trumpeter kit was released, I was left with deciding what to do about it. Simply adding the "crease" is not the issue. That is what Cutting Edge did. Reluctantly, I have decided that I am not going to re-invent the whole forward fuselage. All this research and road-tripping has brought me full circle to the point that I am going to just build the kit's forward fuselage as provided in the kit. Without coming up with the narrower canopies, I am not going to fix the problems of the kit.



<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
You were going - we are stationed here! Would have liked to meet you and pick your brain on some of the great techniques you have posted here...
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Joined: May 10th, 2005, 10:47 pm

November 9th, 2011, 4:59 pm #5

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I think I finally got it. Unfortuneately, the measurements I took in person on my road trip to PAX did not measure this exact thing, oh well... I promise, after this, I will let it go and just build the model.

Consider these images:


The topside image provides the view of the difference that is the easiest to see. I added a couple lines to the image to highlight the issue. The red line follows the actual crease line on the Vigilante. The black line approximates the same line on the Trumpeter kit parts. The basic issue is this -- the cockpit glass in the kit for the front cockpit and windscreen is too wide. On the real aircraft, the cockpit glass is narrower with the fuselage sides sloping in to meet the glass. The "crease" is the line where the sloping fuselage side meets the rounded bow of the cockpit glass.

To quantify the width difference, I did some detail measurements on the kit pieces and the images I took at PAX of the real RA-5C. On the model, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 73% of the total width of the fuselage. On the real RA-5C, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 64% of the total width of the fuselage. This makes the clear glass portion of the model pieces too wide by about 0.1 inches or almost five scale inches.

I got lucky when I was at PAX for the air show earlier this year. The sun position was striaght up, relative to the Vigilante nose. Thus the shadows highlighted the contours very well. Note the shadow line in the side view image. The fuselage sides start sloping inward about half way up the side (where the shadow line is). The kit fuselage sides come straight up almost to the canopy glass before they start sloping in. The difference makes the kit cockpit glass too wide and squashed looking. The kit canopy glass is almost circular in cross-section, where it shound come to more of a bowed peak at the center (see the head-on image). This also makes the fusleage sides more "boxy" with flat slab sides where there should be a rounding.

This is where I started realizing that Cutting Edge had the right idea. The only real fix to this would be a whole new forward fuselage. Unfortuneately, Cutting Edge's pieces simply added the "crease" to the kit parts without really changing the canopy width, thus not really adressing the true issue with the forward fuselage.

Having gotten to the point where I was finally seeing the issue that caused the big stir ten years ago when the Trumpeter kit was released, I was left with deciding what to do about it. Simply adding the "crease" is not the issue. That is what Cutting Edge did. Reluctantly, I have decided that I am not going to re-invent the whole forward fuselage. All this research and road-tripping has brought me full circle to the point that I am going to just build the kit's forward fuselage as provided in the kit. Without coming up with the narrower canopies, I am not going to fix the problems of the kit.



<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
I've been doing some research at the other end...
http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2011 ... zzles.html
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Joined: March 2nd, 2010, 12:22 pm

November 9th, 2011, 5:58 pm #6

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I think I finally got it. Unfortuneately, the measurements I took in person on my road trip to PAX did not measure this exact thing, oh well... I promise, after this, I will let it go and just build the model.

Consider these images:


The topside image provides the view of the difference that is the easiest to see. I added a couple lines to the image to highlight the issue. The red line follows the actual crease line on the Vigilante. The black line approximates the same line on the Trumpeter kit parts. The basic issue is this -- the cockpit glass in the kit for the front cockpit and windscreen is too wide. On the real aircraft, the cockpit glass is narrower with the fuselage sides sloping in to meet the glass. The "crease" is the line where the sloping fuselage side meets the rounded bow of the cockpit glass.

To quantify the width difference, I did some detail measurements on the kit pieces and the images I took at PAX of the real RA-5C. On the model, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 73% of the total width of the fuselage. On the real RA-5C, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 64% of the total width of the fuselage. This makes the clear glass portion of the model pieces too wide by about 0.1 inches or almost five scale inches.

I got lucky when I was at PAX for the air show earlier this year. The sun position was striaght up, relative to the Vigilante nose. Thus the shadows highlighted the contours very well. Note the shadow line in the side view image. The fuselage sides start sloping inward about half way up the side (where the shadow line is). The kit fuselage sides come straight up almost to the canopy glass before they start sloping in. The difference makes the kit cockpit glass too wide and squashed looking. The kit canopy glass is almost circular in cross-section, where it shound come to more of a bowed peak at the center (see the head-on image). This also makes the fusleage sides more "boxy" with flat slab sides where there should be a rounding.

This is where I started realizing that Cutting Edge had the right idea. The only real fix to this would be a whole new forward fuselage. Unfortuneately, Cutting Edge's pieces simply added the "crease" to the kit parts without really changing the canopy width, thus not really adressing the true issue with the forward fuselage.

Having gotten to the point where I was finally seeing the issue that caused the big stir ten years ago when the Trumpeter kit was released, I was left with deciding what to do about it. Simply adding the "crease" is not the issue. That is what Cutting Edge did. Reluctantly, I have decided that I am not going to re-invent the whole forward fuselage. All this research and road-tripping has brought me full circle to the point that I am going to just build the kit's forward fuselage as provided in the kit. Without coming up with the narrower canopies, I am not going to fix the problems of the kit.



<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
As George said above, your efforts are appreciated - especially by those of us who don't have an RA-5C on display in (relatively) close proximity to us. It's good to finally understand what the shape issue is.

"I yam what I yam and that's all what I yam." - Popeye
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Joined: April 27th, 2005, 7:47 pm

November 9th, 2011, 6:52 pm #7

You were going - we are stationed here! Would have liked to meet you and pick your brain on some of the great techniques you have posted here...
... maybe next year.


<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 12:06 pm

November 11th, 2011, 3:42 pm #8

Sorry to beat a dead horse. I think I finally got it. Unfortuneately, the measurements I took in person on my road trip to PAX did not measure this exact thing, oh well... I promise, after this, I will let it go and just build the model.

Consider these images:


The topside image provides the view of the difference that is the easiest to see. I added a couple lines to the image to highlight the issue. The red line follows the actual crease line on the Vigilante. The black line approximates the same line on the Trumpeter kit parts. The basic issue is this -- the cockpit glass in the kit for the front cockpit and windscreen is too wide. On the real aircraft, the cockpit glass is narrower with the fuselage sides sloping in to meet the glass. The "crease" is the line where the sloping fuselage side meets the rounded bow of the cockpit glass.

To quantify the width difference, I did some detail measurements on the kit pieces and the images I took at PAX of the real RA-5C. On the model, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 73% of the total width of the fuselage. On the real RA-5C, the canopy glass/windscreen width is 64% of the total width of the fuselage. This makes the clear glass portion of the model pieces too wide by about 0.1 inches or almost five scale inches.

I got lucky when I was at PAX for the air show earlier this year. The sun position was striaght up, relative to the Vigilante nose. Thus the shadows highlighted the contours very well. Note the shadow line in the side view image. The fuselage sides start sloping inward about half way up the side (where the shadow line is). The kit fuselage sides come straight up almost to the canopy glass before they start sloping in. The difference makes the kit cockpit glass too wide and squashed looking. The kit canopy glass is almost circular in cross-section, where it shound come to more of a bowed peak at the center (see the head-on image). This also makes the fusleage sides more "boxy" with flat slab sides where there should be a rounding.

This is where I started realizing that Cutting Edge had the right idea. The only real fix to this would be a whole new forward fuselage. Unfortuneately, Cutting Edge's pieces simply added the "crease" to the kit parts without really changing the canopy width, thus not really adressing the true issue with the forward fuselage.

Having gotten to the point where I was finally seeing the issue that caused the big stir ten years ago when the Trumpeter kit was released, I was left with deciding what to do about it. Simply adding the "crease" is not the issue. That is what Cutting Edge did. Reluctantly, I have decided that I am not going to re-invent the whole forward fuselage. All this research and road-tripping has brought me full circle to the point that I am going to just build the kit's forward fuselage as provided in the kit. Without coming up with the narrower canopies, I am not going to fix the problems of the kit.



<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
O.T, David, but did you ever get your Hustler finnished? regards Kim. nt.
Last edited by 7258 on November 11th, 2011, 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 27th, 2005, 7:47 pm

November 11th, 2011, 6:07 pm #9

... still sitting in my workroom. I want to build a "collection" for J79 powered aircraft, and the collection will not complete without a Hustler. I have the engine pieces about 70% reworked. The wings are assembled and I have the major Lone Star cockpits pieces fitted. I tend to lose interest on long-term projects and drift away for a while until the spirit again moves me. My U-2S model was almost 10 years waiting before I finished it.

The J79 "collection" is for production machines, not test or one-off aircraft. There are five that I can think of (IPMS rules say "collections" have to be at least five pieces). They are (alphabetically by designation):

- A-5 Vigilante
- B-58 Hustler
- F-4 Phantom II
- F-21 Kfir
- F-104 Starfighter

The Vigi is my current effort. I am thinking I might take another swing at the Hustler in the new year. I also need to build a 104 and Kfir...


<font size="5" face="Brush Script MT" color="#0000C0">
DWA

Happiness is NOT ... Getting what you want.
Happiness is     ...     Wanting what you've got.
</font>
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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 12:06 pm

November 13th, 2011, 10:56 am #10

Thanks, looking forward to your project, kind regards Kim.nt
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