P-40E-1CU Question

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P-40E-1CU Question

Joined: October 11th, 2005, 6:40 am

March 27th, 2012, 4:05 pm #1

My question is whether or not the demarcation between Dupont Dark Earth and Dark Green
continues under the rear windows or was it just one of the camouflage colours. I know the
AVG Hawk 81-A-2s had two colours, but what about the P-40E-1s built to British standards
and shipped to Australia in early 1942?

Thanks,
Kevin in Brown's Point, Washington
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Joined: February 25th, 2012, 1:39 am

March 27th, 2012, 6:24 pm #2

I did Lander's 49FG P-40E and my interpretation of photos had me conclude the cockpit color extended through the area under the rear window panels. Not sure it is from the same production block as the one you plan to build, but I recall feeling the images of "Texas Longhorn" were pretty conclusive.

Thus, I used the dark green Curtis usually used in their cockpit. Here it is the 1/32 Hasegawa kit:

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Joined: February 27th, 2005, 1:47 pm

March 27th, 2012, 6:36 pm #3

any more pics?
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Joined: March 2nd, 2005, 12:32 am

March 27th, 2012, 7:50 pm #4

I did Lander's 49FG P-40E and my interpretation of photos had me conclude the cockpit color extended through the area under the rear window panels. Not sure it is from the same production block as the one you plan to build, but I recall feeling the images of "Texas Longhorn" were pretty conclusive.

Thus, I used the dark green Curtis usually used in their cockpit. Here it is the 1/32 Hasegawa kit:

in the exterior color at the factory before the windows were installed. The plane you copied may have been a field or depot repaint, in which case, those windows were seldom removed, but masked off for the repaint, leaving them the original color. In answer to the original question, if the camo was applied at the factory, such as the AVG Hawk 81s, the camo separation did indeed pass through that area. If it was a field/depot repaint, see above. I hate to use the words always, or never, but I've seen no evidence that an interior color was ever used in that area, as it was considered an outer surface, not part of the cockpit. The model illustrated is beautifully executed, however. Hal Sr
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Joined: January 17th, 2003, 8:40 pm

March 27th, 2012, 8:36 pm #5

My question is whether or not the demarcation between Dupont Dark Earth and Dark Green
continues under the rear windows or was it just one of the camouflage colours. I know the
AVG Hawk 81-A-2s had two colours, but what about the P-40E-1s built to British standards
and shipped to Australia in early 1942?

Thanks,
Kevin in Brown's Point, Washington
The demarcation was carried into the inner surface. I think that if repainted in Middle Stone, the inner surface was repainted too.
FErnando
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Joined: April 12th, 2006, 7:34 am

March 27th, 2012, 8:37 pm #6

in the exterior color at the factory before the windows were installed. The plane you copied may have been a field or depot repaint, in which case, those windows were seldom removed, but masked off for the repaint, leaving them the original color. In answer to the original question, if the camo was applied at the factory, such as the AVG Hawk 81s, the camo separation did indeed pass through that area. If it was a field/depot repaint, see above. I hate to use the words always, or never, but I've seen no evidence that an interior color was ever used in that area, as it was considered an outer surface, not part of the cockpit. The model illustrated is beautifully executed, however. Hal Sr
Most photos I've seen of P40E's and later models with two colour finishes show only a single camouflage colour under the windows.The exception is Nollmeyer's P40K which clearly has two.I would go for a single colour.I think the use of interior green in this area is another myth.HTH.
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Joined: March 2nd, 2005, 12:32 am

March 27th, 2012, 10:33 pm #7

Nollmeyer's machine was probably a factory painted bird, thus the camo separation running through that area. The ones you've seen with a solid color there, were most likely field or depot camoflaged over an original OD finish. This would mean the area behind the glass is almost certainly OD. yes, Interior ghreen in that area is a myth. The same info is applicable to P-47 Razorback airplanes, and to Birdcage Corsairs. (Different schemes on the Corsairs, but the principle is the same)ost fortunately, we have photographic proof on F4Us due to the one dragged out of lake Michigan last year. The P-40 pic is from WWII, Life magazine Hal Sr

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Last edited by P47Hal on March 27th, 2012, 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 25th, 2012, 1:39 am

March 27th, 2012, 11:46 pm #8

any more pics?
I have seen several photos of P-40Bs through Ls that suggest it was typical practice. That's why I was so surprised "Texas Longhorn" seemed to not follow the trend.

I have been using this excuse since I joined Hyperscale, but I recently moved and my library is all boxed up and no way am I digging through those yet. Otherwise, I would try to post the images that convinced me. If I recall, one source was the Osprey book on the 49FG, if anyone has it handy. There is also a big hardcover about the 49th I used, but the title escapes me.

Possible explanations? Well, certainly one is I might just have gottent it wrong, but I tend to be pretty careful about my photographic research. I wonder if "Texas Longhorn" was a repaint of an OD machine, and it is that color underneath the windows? Maybe, but it is commonly accepted that the 49FG aircraft were pulled from an RAF order. In any case, the Curtiss factory was under a great deal of pressure in those days, and they seemed to do whatever was needed to get P-40s to frontline units all over the world. Good news for us modelers, because they improvised so much during manufacture that its hard to prove anything is incorrect.

In fact, as a collective historical project, we modelers should all build our P-40s each with different antenna arrays, recognition lights, ports, vents and each with hand mixed paints, to most accurately reflect how they came off the line.
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Joined: October 11th, 2005, 6:40 am

March 27th, 2012, 11:59 pm #9

My question is whether or not the demarcation between Dupont Dark Earth and Dark Green
continues under the rear windows or was it just one of the camouflage colours. I know the
AVG Hawk 81-A-2s had two colours, but what about the P-40E-1s built to British standards
and shipped to Australia in early 1942?

Thanks,
Kevin in Brown's Point, Washington
I know this is a much talked about and debated subject. For what it's worth,
some of the P-40Es shipped to Austrailia were built to U.S. specs (Olive Drab/Neutral Grey)
and later camouflaged two tone. Here's a great link about the subject.

http://amair4raf.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Kevin in Brown's Point, Washington
Last edited by Kevin60 on March 28th, 2012, 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 25th, 2012, 1:39 am

March 28th, 2012, 12:11 am #10

Nollmeyer's machine was probably a factory painted bird, thus the camo separation running through that area. The ones you've seen with a solid color there, were most likely field or depot camoflaged over an original OD finish. This would mean the area behind the glass is almost certainly OD. yes, Interior ghreen in that area is a myth. The same info is applicable to P-47 Razorback airplanes, and to Birdcage Corsairs. (Different schemes on the Corsairs, but the principle is the same)ost fortunately, we have photographic proof on F4Us due to the one dragged out of lake Michigan last year. The P-40 pic is from WWII, Life magazine Hal Sr

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We all certainly agree that it was the intent to have the camouflage color(s) extend beneath the rear windows. Remember also that, before Pearl Harbor, standard practice throughout the industry was to give t airframes a protective undercoat of zinc chromate yellow , a second coat of zinc chromate (darkened with other materials, hence the darker cockpit greens) on areas not to be camouflaged, and camouflage paint over the rest.

With the urgency of the US entry into the war, Curtiss was required to produce P-40s faster than subcontractors could deliver materials, and no one was going to wait around for them to catch up. There was a great deal of improvisation on the assembly line, and it is regarded as likely that on occasion the windows got fixed in place before airframes ended up in the paintshop, resulting in either zinc chromate yellow, or the second zinc chromate coat showing through.

It may well be a "myth" if one relies only on the published orders and manuals; for sure, no such order resulting in interior color panels may exist. But there is strong photographic and anecdotal evidence that they sometime wound up unpainted, especially during the time of manufacture of the P-40s in question here. I find pictures of prewar P-40CUs and F4Us to be unconvincing arguments to the contrary, so I am sticking by my suggestion that the 49th had some examples that probably featured cockpit green under their rear window panels. I stand firm, until someone posts a photo that persuasively suggests otherwise, which I expect to happen in about 20 minutes. God bless Hyperscale.
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