Lancaster bomber WW2 photo shoot

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Lancaster bomber WW2 photo shoot

Joined: August 30th, 2011, 11:52 am

March 28th, 2012, 12:11 pm #1

A strong link to the RAAF was the use of Lancaster bobmer in WW 2 over Europe by various squadrons. Recently the Lancaster Just Jane was used in a stunning photo shoot - see more -http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tures.html
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Joined: June 12th, 2008, 10:15 am

March 28th, 2012, 4:58 pm #2

Hi Flightgearbloke,

Thanks for posting this article showing what I suspect are re-enactors/collectors of service aviation flying gear.

Although I really do appreciate that these enthusiasts through their collecting play a role in the preservation of artefacts from past eras and likewise contribute to informing later generations about those ordinary people from our past who were called upon to do extraordinary things.

I can't help but dislike seeing collectors wear various uniforms and service kit for show etc.

I come from a family with a rather lengthy history of military service.

All four of my Great Grandfathers, two in the British Army and two in the Australian Army served in the First World War, three in Infantry and one in Artillery.

Though they all survived the war, only one came through unscathed simply because he never saw combat action due to the war ending as he arrived in Europe as an 18 year old.

The others were at the Somme in 1916 and beyond, Gordon Highlanders and Highland Light Infantry, one of those lost a leg for his troubles while the other was buried multiple times in shelling yet survived to die young after the war. The one in Artillery (who was wounded by gas) recounted in his diary the horror of losing his men in the mud at Passchendaele. He would never tell anyone about his experiences not even his own son who served in the RAAF in the Second World War.

My two Grandfathers also served in the Second World War, one from the safety of Australia as a Signaller in an Army Anti Aircraft Unit (later he became a Police Superintendent). The other who lost the first house he owned to German bombers during the Blitz went on to land at Bernières-sur-Mer on the 6th of June 1944, as a British Army Driver attached to the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division until Germany surrendered.

My Grandfathers got off lightly compared to their cousins who were killed over Germany (RAAF), on the HMS Prince of Wales (off Singapore) and at Tobruk (British Artillery). I also had many other Uncles and Aunts plus Cousins who had served/worn a uniform in the Australian Army, Navy, Air Force and the New South Wales Police or Ambulance Service.

Going further back there were family members who had fought at Culloden, The Peninsula War, The Relief of General Gordon and much more going back even further.

Even I was once a Soldier; I served in the Australian Regular Army (joining as a 17 year old) and later in the Army Reserve all up for around 14 years with no service in Operations (I haven't given in the same way that some of my friends and family have).

Yet despite or maybe because of that family history I won't wear a uniform, not even my old stuff (whats left of it) since I am no longer a Soldier, I wont wear a uniform from another service or era either since I never earned it. Nor would I wear rank or decorations that I havent earned (and that includes medals that were my Grandfathers even to commemorate them).

Like many of my age and older I used to read Commando Comics as a kid my English Grandfather used to also get them for me; I used to think it was so exciting that he was there for D-Day. Yet when I was older, I lent him a book called Caen Anvil of Victory by Alexander McKee. He later told me that reading that book had brought the smell of death back to him and he had started to have nightmares afterward. To this day I still wish I never lent him that book.

So sometimes when I see collectors and re-enactors having a lark as pretend Sailors, Soldiers and or Airmen, wearing uniforms and or rank, trade qualifications, decorations that they haven't earned, I cant help but feel however unintended it may be, that they are belittling service by portraying service men and women as poorly caricatures of the real thing.

I'm sure many people will have a range of differing views on this, so I do appreciate that just because this is something that I don't feel is right. It doesn't mean that those who collect and dress up like they are on the linked article wrong in what they are doing.

Cheers,


Daniel.
Last edited by Daniel_Cox on March 29th, 2012, 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: June 22nd, 2009, 10:44 pm

March 28th, 2012, 10:08 pm #3

A strong link to the RAAF was the use of Lancaster bobmer in WW 2 over Europe by various squadrons. Recently the Lancaster Just Jane was used in a stunning photo shoot - see more -http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tures.html
Beautiful plane...brave young men...God bless them all. n/t
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Joined: April 26th, 2006, 11:30 pm

March 28th, 2012, 11:29 pm #4

A strong link to the RAAF was the use of Lancaster bobmer in WW 2 over Europe by various squadrons. Recently the Lancaster Just Jane was used in a stunning photo shoot - see more -http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tures.html
I have a personal story about this squadron. My mothers' cousin and man by the man of Beresford Milton Troy-Davis was a Sgt.Pilot with 460 and was killed with 5 other crew on the night of 23rd May, 1943.
When I first became interested in aeroplanes as a young boy and started building models, my mother told me his story - kind of as a way of enlightening me to the true horror of war and the ultimate sacrifice some incredibly brave people make.
My mother was supposed to visit the grave in Holland after the war with her auntie, but her own father became very ill and died shortly after the war, so she never ended up going. After all these years, I got to visit the grave almost two years ago now and it was a very humbling experience.
At 20 years of age, Beresford was in command of Lancaster AR-J and his aircraft was shot down by one of the Lutwaffe's nacht experten at the time - August Geiger of NJG1. August went on to claim 53 victories and was shot down by Bob Braham three months later and drowned in his chute in the Zuider Zee. August was only 24 and I hope to visit his grave in Holland perhaps next visit to Europe - to complete this journey of mine.
Beresford is buried in the general cemetery in a town called Schoonebeek - about 2 hours drive west of Amsterdam. It was a suitably miserable and drizzly day when I visited. On Beresford's headstone reads the inscription "Dearer to our memory than words can tell - Mother". Only a mother can know the true agony of lossing her only child.



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Joined: April 26th, 2006, 11:30 pm

March 29th, 2012, 1:43 am #5

Hi Flightgearbloke,

Thanks for posting this article showing what I suspect are re-enactors/collectors of service aviation flying gear.

Although I really do appreciate that these enthusiasts through their collecting play a role in the preservation of artefacts from past eras and likewise contribute to informing later generations about those ordinary people from our past who were called upon to do extraordinary things.

I can't help but dislike seeing collectors wear various uniforms and service kit for show etc.

I come from a family with a rather lengthy history of military service.

All four of my Great Grandfathers, two in the British Army and two in the Australian Army served in the First World War, three in Infantry and one in Artillery.

Though they all survived the war, only one came through unscathed simply because he never saw combat action due to the war ending as he arrived in Europe as an 18 year old.

The others were at the Somme in 1916 and beyond, Gordon Highlanders and Highland Light Infantry, one of those lost a leg for his troubles while the other was buried multiple times in shelling yet survived to die young after the war. The one in Artillery (who was wounded by gas) recounted in his diary the horror of losing his men in the mud at Passchendaele. He would never tell anyone about his experiences not even his own son who served in the RAAF in the Second World War.

My two Grandfathers also served in the Second World War, one from the safety of Australia as a Signaller in an Army Anti Aircraft Unit (later he became a Police Superintendent). The other who lost the first house he owned to German bombers during the Blitz went on to land at Bernières-sur-Mer on the 6th of June 1944, as a British Army Driver attached to the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division until Germany surrendered.

My Grandfathers got off lightly compared to their cousins who were killed over Germany (RAAF), on the HMS Prince of Wales (off Singapore) and at Tobruk (British Artillery). I also had many other Uncles and Aunts plus Cousins who had served/worn a uniform in the Australian Army, Navy, Air Force and the New South Wales Police or Ambulance Service.

Going further back there were family members who had fought at Culloden, The Peninsula War, The Relief of General Gordon and much more going back even further.

Even I was once a Soldier; I served in the Australian Regular Army (joining as a 17 year old) and later in the Army Reserve all up for around 14 years with no service in Operations (I haven't given in the same way that some of my friends and family have).

Yet despite or maybe because of that family history I won't wear a uniform, not even my old stuff (whats left of it) since I am no longer a Soldier, I wont wear a uniform from another service or era either since I never earned it. Nor would I wear rank or decorations that I havent earned (and that includes medals that were my Grandfathers even to commemorate them).

Like many of my age and older I used to read Commando Comics as a kid my English Grandfather used to also get them for me; I used to think it was so exciting that he was there for D-Day. Yet when I was older, I lent him a book called Caen Anvil of Victory by Alexander McKee. He later told me that reading that book had brought the smell of death back to him and he had started to have nightmares afterward. To this day I still wish I never lent him that book.

So sometimes when I see collectors and re-enactors having a lark as pretend Sailors, Soldiers and or Airmen, wearing uniforms and or rank, trade qualifications, decorations that they haven't earned, I cant help but feel however unintended it may be, that they are belittling service by portraying service men and women as poorly caricatures of the real thing.

I'm sure many people will have a range of differing views on this, so I do appreciate that just because this is something that I don't feel is right. It doesn't mean that those who collect and dress up like they are on the linked article wrong in what they are doing.

Cheers,


Daniel.
Whilst I never had the honour of serving my country in the military (although I did try hard to get into aircrew training RAAF), there's just something not quite right about the re-enactors in my humble opinion. Part of me is saying that it's keeping history alive and another part is saying that they have no right to wear these uniforms in a public setting.
In this case, I think of the complete fear that would have gone through all those crews minds prior to boarding the aeroplane. This is what made these aircrew so brave and is something that can never be replicated.

In my mothers family, there were two members of Bomber Command - one Pilot (KIA in Holland) and one Navigator (Senior Master Bomber with the Pathfinders who was shot down and escaped three times from occupied Europe - survived the war but rarely talked about it). In the case of my Great Uncle who was the Nav with Pathfinders, he was the only one left of his course to survive - all the rest were killed. He ended up not making friends with anyone towards the end of the war - what was the point if they were going to be killed anyway? He also refused to attend the ceremony for the award of his second bar to his DFC - just said to his boss - "send it to my parents".
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Joined: June 12th, 2008, 10:15 am

March 29th, 2012, 2:30 am #6

I have a personal story about this squadron. My mothers' cousin and man by the man of Beresford Milton Troy-Davis was a Sgt.Pilot with 460 and was killed with 5 other crew on the night of 23rd May, 1943.
When I first became interested in aeroplanes as a young boy and started building models, my mother told me his story - kind of as a way of enlightening me to the true horror of war and the ultimate sacrifice some incredibly brave people make.
My mother was supposed to visit the grave in Holland after the war with her auntie, but her own father became very ill and died shortly after the war, so she never ended up going. After all these years, I got to visit the grave almost two years ago now and it was a very humbling experience.
At 20 years of age, Beresford was in command of Lancaster AR-J and his aircraft was shot down by one of the Lutwaffe's nacht experten at the time - August Geiger of NJG1. August went on to claim 53 victories and was shot down by Bob Braham three months later and drowned in his chute in the Zuider Zee. August was only 24 and I hope to visit his grave in Holland perhaps next visit to Europe - to complete this journey of mine.
Beresford is buried in the general cemetery in a town called Schoonebeek - about 2 hours drive west of Amsterdam. It was a suitably miserable and drizzly day when I visited. On Beresford's headstone reads the inscription "Dearer to our memory than words can tell - Mother". Only a mother can know the true agony of lossing her only child.



Hi Adam,

Thanks for sharing your personal story, I am glad you have been fortunate enough to visit the grave of Beresford and to have learnt more about him. I guess being older now I can't help but be amazed at how young they were back then and likewise today with what they had/have to do.

As to loss I'm sure that all those who knew him will for all of their lives miss him not as a pilot but as a young man special to them.

Cheers,



Daniel.
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Joined: June 30th, 2008, 4:53 pm

March 29th, 2012, 6:42 am #7

Beautiful plane...brave young men...God bless them all. n/t
being erected in Green Park, London, dedicated to the men of Bomber Command.

It took the authorities sixty-seven years to acknowledege the sacrifice that these chaps made for their country. It's done now, thankfully.

Bless them all.

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Joined: August 30th, 2011, 11:52 am

March 29th, 2012, 9:13 am #8

Hi Flightgearbloke,

Thanks for posting this article showing what I suspect are re-enactors/collectors of service aviation flying gear.

Although I really do appreciate that these enthusiasts through their collecting play a role in the preservation of artefacts from past eras and likewise contribute to informing later generations about those ordinary people from our past who were called upon to do extraordinary things.

I can't help but dislike seeing collectors wear various uniforms and service kit for show etc.

I come from a family with a rather lengthy history of military service.

All four of my Great Grandfathers, two in the British Army and two in the Australian Army served in the First World War, three in Infantry and one in Artillery.

Though they all survived the war, only one came through unscathed simply because he never saw combat action due to the war ending as he arrived in Europe as an 18 year old.

The others were at the Somme in 1916 and beyond, Gordon Highlanders and Highland Light Infantry, one of those lost a leg for his troubles while the other was buried multiple times in shelling yet survived to die young after the war. The one in Artillery (who was wounded by gas) recounted in his diary the horror of losing his men in the mud at Passchendaele. He would never tell anyone about his experiences not even his own son who served in the RAAF in the Second World War.

My two Grandfathers also served in the Second World War, one from the safety of Australia as a Signaller in an Army Anti Aircraft Unit (later he became a Police Superintendent). The other who lost the first house he owned to German bombers during the Blitz went on to land at Bernières-sur-Mer on the 6th of June 1944, as a British Army Driver attached to the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division until Germany surrendered.

My Grandfathers got off lightly compared to their cousins who were killed over Germany (RAAF), on the HMS Prince of Wales (off Singapore) and at Tobruk (British Artillery). I also had many other Uncles and Aunts plus Cousins who had served/worn a uniform in the Australian Army, Navy, Air Force and the New South Wales Police or Ambulance Service.

Going further back there were family members who had fought at Culloden, The Peninsula War, The Relief of General Gordon and much more going back even further.

Even I was once a Soldier; I served in the Australian Regular Army (joining as a 17 year old) and later in the Army Reserve all up for around 14 years with no service in Operations (I haven't given in the same way that some of my friends and family have).

Yet despite or maybe because of that family history I won't wear a uniform, not even my old stuff (whats left of it) since I am no longer a Soldier, I wont wear a uniform from another service or era either since I never earned it. Nor would I wear rank or decorations that I havent earned (and that includes medals that were my Grandfathers even to commemorate them).

Like many of my age and older I used to read Commando Comics as a kid my English Grandfather used to also get them for me; I used to think it was so exciting that he was there for D-Day. Yet when I was older, I lent him a book called Caen Anvil of Victory by Alexander McKee. He later told me that reading that book had brought the smell of death back to him and he had started to have nightmares afterward. To this day I still wish I never lent him that book.

So sometimes when I see collectors and re-enactors having a lark as pretend Sailors, Soldiers and or Airmen, wearing uniforms and or rank, trade qualifications, decorations that they haven't earned, I cant help but feel however unintended it may be, that they are belittling service by portraying service men and women as poorly caricatures of the real thing.

I'm sure many people will have a range of differing views on this, so I do appreciate that just because this is something that I don't feel is right. It doesn't mean that those who collect and dress up like they are on the linked article wrong in what they are doing.

Cheers,


Daniel.
Ok - so you may of served in ADF and so have my family stretching back to WW1, WW2, Korea , 1960s reserves and myself. if you take a view that you have to do time to wear a uniform, how do you ensure the legacy of the past is remembered in any capacity outside of a museum?

This is where reenactors come into their own market...

One thing that is missing is people in the present day - and i can verify this very well after 5yrs - DONT understand history NOR do they have many chances to see live action beside military equipment to understand how a pilot fitted into a aircraft ...

In 2007 i started a business in Sydney doing flightgear displays and over last 5years have attracted much attention and interest because people have no idea what their relatives in WW2, Korea or Vietnam wore when flying...nor did they understand how complex the flightgear was when a pilot flew in war. it is cumbersome and heavy and uncomfortable in cases.

View my webpage and then decide if your reenactors opinion arent the full quid - is it really an appropiate comment?

http://heritageflightgeardisplays.wordpress.com/

My webpage has helped people all over the world preserve, restore and understand what their relatives or friends did. I have helped indirectly restore warbird and museum aircraft with my expertise.

I have helped the RAAF indirectly last year on its 90th Anniversary with a large display of my gear at RAAF Richmond alongside another collector who had WW2/1950s display.....and one RAAF veteran said to me "wow thats what i wore in Vietnam" and he never thought he would see his gear again.....

Reenactors are viewed by many in a harsh light but they allow people to see a section of history not normally seen.

By serving in the ADF, i assume you dont want anyone to remember in the future what you did? Surely that couldnt be a view you want to hold on to?

Phil

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Joined: June 12th, 2008, 10:15 am

March 29th, 2012, 8:55 pm #9

Hi Phil,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, I have seen your display at Temora last year during Warbirds Downunder. You also added some colour to the event in a positive way, which I might add is a good thing.

In many ways my comments are more a reflection on me and my opinions than re-enactors (by the way my wife doesn't agree with me). It still in many ways doesn't feel right to me while at the same time as I said earlier it makes a contribution to preservation and education which is a great thing, I also acknowledged at the end of my post were I said re-enactors/collectors certainly aren't wrong in what are doing.

I was hoping to get a variety of opinions on this subject which I have been fortunate to get here so thank-you Adam and Phil. As to the appropriateness of my comment, of course it is appropriate it is my opinion. I still wouldn't do it myself, it isn't for me at all which is something I expressed earlier because at the personal level it doesn't feel right, that said I reiterate that those who do this contribute to the preservation of these items and play a role in informing the public about those who wore the same.

Anyway next time I see you I will say hi, something I didn't do last time since I was a bit busy wielding a heavy camera.

Cheers,


Daniel.

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Joined: April 26th, 2006, 11:30 pm

March 30th, 2012, 12:59 am #10

being erected in Green Park, London, dedicated to the men of Bomber Command.

It took the authorities sixty-seven years to acknowledege the sacrifice that these chaps made for their country. It's done now, thankfully.

Bless them all.
Thanks for letting me know about this.
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