Joined: July 11th, 2005, 1:07 pm

June 3rd, 2018, 2:45 pm #11

Nav1Bill wrote:
samodeldad wrote: Theoretically, it may make kits cheaper. Less demand for plastic could result in lower price.  

As others noted, we do not toss our kits on the roadside or beach.  Although, a model kit is perhaps "single use plastic". So the proposed regulations have nothing to do with plastic hobby kits.

In Massachusetts, the town, not county, is the basis for local law and regulation.  My town and many others have simply outlawed the used of plastic bags in stores.  Back to good old brown paper.  Some even have begun to prohibit water in bottles.  As for leaf bags, that the home owner's obligation, and you just get the brown paper from Home Depot or Costco, or ACE.
And if it rains while the paper bags are sitting at the curb for pickup? Wet, stinky grass in a fall-apart bag.
Thank goodness the same initiative, pushed by our county "we know best" dictators, was rebuffed the citizens.

Paper bags require much more energy and cost more to produce. 

What is needed is just commonsense on the part of each individual to dispose of single use plastic in a responsible way.  Sorry, the latter is probably an un-reachable goal as so many are not responsible in so many different ways.  Besides, how would the "homeless" on the streets carry their stuff if there were no plastic bags.
Funny how a paper cup holds water without turning to a mass of pulp and why leave the bag of sh@t in the curb to pick up later ? Yeah I know the reasoning but I’ve seen too many bags dog walkers forgot to pick up. Thus leaving stinking bags of sh@t on kerbs, country lanes and tree branches. etc etc for others that come across


The fact is plastic in many forms is polluting the planet. It’s not just awful to look at its contaimnating the food chain from the bottom up.

Unfortunately as you say a lot of people and companies aren’t responsible so Governments have the save the majority from the irresponsible minority. It’s not about dictatorship.

The EU is not banning plastic in total.  It’s banning a lot of the needless single use items like drinking staws. Which we can live without or use paper ones.

Regards
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 2:09 pm

June 3rd, 2018, 3:45 pm #12

Nav1Bill wrote:
samodeldad wrote: Theoretically, it may make kits cheaper. Less demand for plastic could result in lower price.  

As others noted, we do not toss our kits on the roadside or beach.  Although, a model kit is perhaps "single use plastic". So the proposed regulations have nothing to do with plastic hobby kits.

In Massachusetts, the town, not county, is the basis for local law and regulation.  My town and many others have simply outlawed the used of plastic bags in stores.  Back to good old brown paper.  Some even have begun to prohibit water in bottles.  As for leaf bags, that the home owner's obligation, and you just get the brown paper from Home Depot or Costco, or ACE.
And if it rains while the paper bags are sitting at the curb for pickup? Wet, stinky grass in a fall-apart bag.
Thank goodness the same initiative, pushed by our county "we know best" dictators, was rebuffed the citizens.

Paper bags require much more energy and cost more to produce. 

What is needed is just commonsense on the part of each individual to dispose of single use plastic in a responsible way.  Sorry, the latter is probably an un-reachable goal as so many are not responsible in so many different ways.  Besides, how would the "homeless" on the streets carry their stuff if there were no plastic bags.
Clearly you speak without knowing.
In my town there is no trash pick-up, including leaves.  Homeowner takes it to the town facility, or contracts to have it picked up, where it must be in a plastic container.

In many towns leaves are picked up on designated days, and you don't leave bags out until they rot.

When I lived in NY, thew town had you leave the leaves in piles and it would be taken away, on designated days.

many towns will not collect leaves in plastic as the package cannot be easily recycled.

As for the homeless, they are quite adaptive.
Steven “Modeldad” Eisenman

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
—George Orwell

Zu Asche zu Staub
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Joined: April 23rd, 2018, 1:21 am

June 3rd, 2018, 11:18 pm #13

Interesting to see how other places handle rubbish etc.

Here in Australia the local municipal councils provide rubbish collection and separate, on alternate weeks collection of garden waste and recyclables. One week it's garden waste which is recycled into mulch for use by the council or free to residents to pick up, and the next it's recyclable materials (paper, glass, plastics) the collection of which is contracted to the council by private industry.

Unfortunately Australia's recycling industry took the cheap way out and instead of establishing home grown industries to recycle and re manufacture the waste, they simply exported it to China to do that. Now the Chinese have stopped the importation of foreign recyclable waste and the local "recycling" industry has found that its attempt at cheap profits has turned into increasing stock piles of recyclables in Australia - they are intending pass the cost onto consumers rather than sort out their own poor business plans. That's often the problem with relying on private contractors to handle essential services. 

A sensible suggestion regarding reuse of recyclables is to impose a deposit on reusable containers such as bottles so that the purchaser can return them to the point of sale to get the deposit back while the actual container is then returned to the product manufacturer for cleaning and reuse. This used to be the practice when I was a kid for glass bottles (this was before plastic bottles etc.) but in search of better profits the manufacturers decided it was easier and cheaper to send them to landfill (now not a real option) instead of cleaning and reusing. One Australian state has now reintroduced the deposit system and it will be interesting to see how it works out.  

On the subject of plastic bags, our larger supermarket chains are now actively moving towards banning plastic bags, as are the various state governments. Which is a good idea and which encourages the customer to bring their own bags - usually cheap reusable tote bags made of recycled material which last years.

I won't even discuss the disgusting idea of dog poo in plastic bags except to suggest it would probably be more environmentally friendly to shove a cork up Fido's arse.  
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Joined: September 28th, 2006, 2:51 am

June 4th, 2018, 1:28 am #14

We recycle all items here, including grass and yard waste. The homeowner does not waste gas and clog the streets driving items to the two county recycle/dump sites. In a county of 1 Mil plus people, some who do not own vehicles, the idea is just plain stupid.

Also, I don't understand what the difference is between private enterprise trying to recycle waste or a local government doing the same as the closure of exports to China would result in the same impact. The homeowner still pays.  The problem is the move to putting all recycles into the same pile.  The paper contaminates the plastic/glass and cannot be completely separated at the main plant.  Recent article in WSJ highlighted the issues, the failure of separation, the costs involved, and the impact of China's import closure.

EU solution is the usual bureaucratic, central committee solution.
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Joined: April 23rd, 2018, 1:21 am

June 4th, 2018, 1:37 am #15

Nav1Bill wrote:
Also, I don't understand what the difference is between private enterprise trying to recycle waste or a local government doing the same as the closure of exports to China would result in the same impact. The homeowner still pays.  
It isn't that which is the problem as I see it. If the waste was properly recycled i.e. reprocessed in Australia from the beginning that would have created new industries and importantly jobs. The recyclers however eschewed that approach and from the start simply opted to ship the waste off shore for reprocessing. Usual quick profit trick which has now backfired and leaves us to pay the cost of doing it properly in the first place - costs which, had that happened would have been amortized by now. 

There is of course an additional problem in that ironically new plastic is cheaper to produce than recycling old plastic because colour and type separation is the problem but if that had been tackled from the start then we would not be in the position of finding another third world country to ship it to which eventually will do what China has done, and then we will be back at square one again. The recyclers built their profits on a false picture of how they were recycling and its come back to bite them on the arse, unfortunately all of us have been caught up in their self-created problem. 

The best solution is high temperature incineration to produce energy. But I cannot see that getting off the ground as firstly the operators will cut costs and thus risk pollution and the environmental lobby here will, in its unrealistic way, just oppose it for the sake of opposing it. 

Recently I noted an article citing the problem of glass recycling but to be realistic when I was a kid most glass containers were (if unbroken) cleaned and reused. If there is a problem with broken or otherwise unreusable glass then it can be ground down to form silica grains which, as glass is basically just melted silica to begin with, can be used in anything that requires a sand aggregate or even mixed with recycled green waste to form potting mixes or other useful gardening aggregates. I note that one council is successfully experimenting with it as an aggregate in road making materials. Unlike plastic which lingers on forever if it isn't a biodegradable form, glass doesn't need to be biodegradable because it is just basically silica which is not an environmental hazard.    
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Joined: September 28th, 2006, 2:51 am

June 5th, 2018, 5:00 pm #16

Malcolm,

All good points. 

The PRC closure of recycle acceptance should (hopefully) drive governments and companies to advance the whole waste recycling process through application of new ideas and inventions.  After all, the "raw material" will always be there.

Just had a thought on the EU goofy ideas:  How much additional materials will be needed to produce the re-useable straws, and how much water/energy will be needed to clean them?  Will the new materials use less than the production of plastic products? Will the inevitable destruction and disposal of the new items create their own recycle problem?

Unintended consequences are sometimes the bane of a good initial idea.  Recent article pointed out the disposal problem of the early generations of solar cell panels. Issues are arising with the silicon disposal, etc.  Same applies to the increased use of high-density batteries.
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Joined: July 11th, 2005, 1:07 pm

June 5th, 2018, 6:44 pm #17

Nav1Bill wrote: Malcolm,

All good points. 

The PRC closure of recycle acceptance should (hopefully) drive governments and companies to advance the whole waste recycling process through application of new ideas and inventions.  After all, the "raw material" will always be there.

Just had a thought on the EU goofy ideas:  How much additional materials will be needed to produce the re-useable straws, and how much water/energy will be needed to clean them?  Will the new materials use less than the production of plastic products? Will the inevitable destruction and disposal of the new items create their own recycle problem?

Unintended consequences are sometimes the bane of a good initial idea.  Recent article pointed out the disposal problem of the early generations of solar cell panels. Issues are arising with the silicon disposal, etc.  Same applies to the increased use of high-density batteries.

**********
Bill
A lot you say is very true. There does need to be more joined up thinking on these things both by Goverments and companies. Unfortunately for most companies the bottom line is everything and the environment comes last.

However the EU directive is trying to do is reduce SINGLE USE plastics useage. Just taking the UK. Since charging for plastic bags(5p) the use of single use plastic bags had gone down by 83% within two years. This didn’t cause a rise in paper bag use by 83% it just made people change habits, Like remembering to take a bag for shopping instead of just taking a free one that goes to landfill or needs recycling.  So that’s a total reduction in waste and pollution not a transfer to some other material. Not 83% I agree but possibly over 50%. Oh and I see less plastic bags littering the streets now too. 

The EU move is more about pollution than renewables. It has been proven that plastics are already polluting the food chain and right down to The lowest levels. 

Me not having a plastic straw or any straw in my G&T won’t save the planet on its own. However not having 8.5 Billion ( amount of straws used in uk per year) plastic straws in the ocean/ landfill/ rubbish will make a difference.  So instead of having a substitute paper straw, have no straw. The G&T still tastes the same. If the same waste results are achieved with straws and other items as plastic bags thats a big positive result. 

This is more than just stopping plastic it’s about making people think about what’s happening and forcing change for the good.
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Joined: November 17th, 2006, 1:18 pm

June 6th, 2018, 4:33 pm #18

Nav1Bill wrote:
samodeldad wrote: Theoretically, it may make kits cheaper. Less demand for plastic could result in lower price.  

As others noted, we do not toss our kits on the roadside or beach.  Although, a model kit is perhaps "single use plastic". So the proposed regulations have nothing to do with plastic hobby kits.

In Massachusetts, the town, not county, is the basis for local law and regulation.  My town and many others have simply outlawed the used of plastic bags in stores.  Back to good old brown paper.  Some even have begun to prohibit water in bottles.  As for leaf bags, that the home owner's obligation, and you just get the brown paper from Home Depot or Costco, or ACE.
And if it rains while the paper bags are sitting at the curb for pickup? Wet, stinky grass in a fall-apart bag.
Thank goodness the same initiative, pushed by our county "we know best" dictators, was rebuffed the citizens.

Paper bags require much more energy and cost more to produce. 

What is needed is just commonsense on the part of each individual to dispose of single use plastic in a responsible way.  Sorry, the latter is probably an un-reachable goal as so many are not responsible in so many different ways.  Besides, how would the "homeless" on the streets carry their stuff if there were no plastic bags.
One thousand+ use used/donated to goodwill backpacks maybe?

I'm in Baja a lot and sooooo sad to see a beautiful tall majestic cactus w/ a plastic mini mart bag stuck on its thorns. I remove them when I can but many are high up and I don't carry along a ladder or long pole when we go camping. Those damn bags flapping/stuck on the many barbed wire fences too! Depressing.

My yard trimmings (along w/ food waste starting 6-8 yrs ago), leaves and tree trims, go into big wheelie bins picked up weekly to be turned into compost. The compost then used by the public works guys.

20-30 yrs ago here, pre wheelie bins, they use to supply a couple big 4' high when filled, 'for yard trimmings only' paper bags per week. Constructed of very thick/tuff brown paper. 2-3x thicker than a good old time supermkt paper bag. Rain proof. But then too I live in very ecologically conscious, tree hugging, NorCal. AND my property taxes are crazy high. But pretty much no fuss EZ to recycle here. CURB service! Even old paint, batteries, motor oil, ATF, TVs, furniture, etc, a few times a yr. Harder to be environmentally conscious, recycle, in other parts of the country/world to be sure.
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Joined: September 2nd, 2012, 11:32 pm

June 8th, 2018, 2:56 am #19

my recycling program lets me toss my old empty sprues in the blue bin for collection and recycling along with the boxes. 

Besides, who needs a straw in their beer anyway  🍻
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