How, and when, were Stammkennzeichen removed from Luftwaffe aircraft?

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How, and when, were Stammkennzeichen removed from Luftwaffe aircraft?

Joined: December 4th, 2008, 6:41 am

April 4th, 2018, 6:34 pm #1

The Stammkennzeichen do look painted on; yet, in most cases, there is no trace of then after removal. How was it done, and at what stage in the life of a Luftwaffe plane?
And how about Balkenkreuze? Could they be removed by the same method, i.e. w/o trace? I am building an Bf110E trop in Iraqi markings (delivered straight from the factory, in desert camouflage), and wondering whether it would have shown traces of Balkenkreuze and/or Code under the Iraqi triangle or not.
TIA, Richard
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 2:09 pm

April 4th, 2018, 6:40 pm #2

For aircraft that were transferred from the LW , the swastika, cross and unit codes were painted over.

The factory codes were either overpainted or taken off with solvent when assigned to the unit.

Here you can see the overpaint of the crosses and the unit code Paint could be 79n or 02 or Italian sand. But not 65.

Last edited by samodeldad on April 4th, 2018, 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steven “Modeldad” Eisenman

'Storm's A-Comin' Baby'
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Joined: March 5th, 2010, 2:22 pm

April 4th, 2018, 8:21 pm #3

The Stammkennzeichen do look painted on; yet, in most cases, there is no trace of then after removal. How was it done, and at what stage in the life of a Luftwaffe plane?
And how about Balkenkreuze? Could they be removed by the same method, i.e. w/o trace? I am building an Bf110E trop in Iraqi markings (delivered straight from the factory, in desert camouflage), and wondering whether it would have shown traces of Balkenkreuze and/or Code under the Iraqi triangle or not.
TIA, Richard
And my research indicates that none of the 14 Bf-110's sent to Iraq survived to leave (some of the He-111's and transports did make it back). The Iraqi markings were applied in Greece. Also, references conflict on whether the Bf-110's sent to Iraq were C's, D-3's, or E's. I believe they were D-3's, because my references say that neither the C's nor the E's were equipped to carry the large 198 gallon drop tanks that are obvious in the photos, only D-3's. So I think Eduard got that wrong in their kit decal options for their E variant (but Dragon got it right in their D-3 kit).

Ed
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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 6:41 am

April 4th, 2018, 8:22 pm #4

For aircraft that were transferred from the LW , the swastika, cross and unit codes were painted over.

The factory codes were either overpainted or taken off with solvent when assigned to the unit.

Here you can see the overpaint of the crosses and the unit code Paint could be 79n or 02 or Italian sand. But not 65.

Thank you for the photo!. The model will represent one of three Bf110E trops Drewes and friends flew no further than Aleppo, and back to Greece in June 1941.
Unfortunately the only photo I could find is a close-up of the nose of the plane, from about 10:30: deep tropical radiator; color separation along a panel line on left engine with very strong contrast between colors (quite dark on top, very light below. Drewes describes it as "desert camouflage"); shark mouth; no white on gun access panel; dark spinner on right engine. So the look of the fuselage is mere guesswork. I went for plain 79 over 78 with a low color separation line.
The book has another photo, with Drewes standing at the tail of a Bf110: Iraqi markings on tail and fuselage; color separation line on spine right aft of MG muzzle (trace of overpainted code and Balkenkreuz?); oil tank under fuselage just in front of loop antenna: could this be one of the E-trops? The photos I found of the earlier, non topicalized batch, don't show this additional fuselage tank. The caption of this photo says: "At the airport of Aleppo in Syria"

I apologize if I led you astray along the 109 path.
Richard
P.S.: Photos are in Drewes autobiography "Sand und Feuer"
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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 6:41 am

April 4th, 2018, 8:37 pm #5

And my research indicates that none of the 14 Bf-110's sent to Iraq survived to leave (some of the He-111's and transports did make it back). The Iraqi markings were applied in Greece. Also, references conflict on whether the Bf-110's sent to Iraq were C's, D-3's, or E's. I believe they were D-3's, because my references say that neither the C's nor the E's were equipped to carry the large 198 gallon drop tanks that are obvious in the photos, only D-3's. So I think Eduard got that wrong in their kit decal options for their E variant (but Dragon got it right in their D-3 kit).

Ed
is explicit: he, and two other crews, flew to Rhodes in June to pick up 3 brand new Bf110s. (He does not specify the sub-type; the idea the were E-trops is mine because they had deep radiators and other topicalized equipment). They flew to Aleppo in Syria, spent a few days there, and returned, in those 3 planes, to Rhodes. At that time they had just four 198 gallon tanks left. So one pilot sick with diarrhea got two, and Drewes and another pilot struggled with the asymmetric load of one tank each.
Check my reply to Modeldads "What if"response above for a description of photos in this book. A D-3 would explain the under fuselage oil tank shown in one of these photos: but I have not seen that equipment on any other Bf110 in Iraqi markings. Could an E trop carry that tank? Or were some D's upgraded to tropical radiators?
Richard
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 2:09 pm

April 4th, 2018, 9:01 pm #6

Thank you for the photo!. The model will represent one of three Bf110E trops Drewes and friends flew no further than Aleppo, and back to Greece in June 1941.
Unfortunately the only photo I could find is a close-up of the nose of the plane, from about 10:30: deep tropical radiator; color separation along a panel line on left engine with very strong contrast between colors (quite dark on top, very light below. Drewes describes it as "desert camouflage"); shark mouth; no white on gun access panel; dark spinner on right engine. So the look of the fuselage is mere guesswork. I went for plain 79 over 78 with a low color separation line.
The book has another photo, with Drewes standing at the tail of a Bf110: Iraqi markings on tail and fuselage; color separation line on spine right aft of MG muzzle (trace of overpainted code and Balkenkreuz?); oil tank under fuselage just in front of loop antenna: could this be one of the E-trops? The photos I found of the earlier, non topicalized batch, don't show this additional fuselage tank. The caption of this photo says: "At the airport of Aleppo in Syria"

I apologize if I led you astray along the 109 path.
Richard
P.S.: Photos are in Drewes autobiography "Sand und Feuer"
Most have large underwing tanks.

Also note the 110Es had both short and boat tails to add to the confusion.

I did mine in 71/02.







Steven “Modeldad” Eisenman

'Storm's A-Comin' Baby'
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Joined: May 19th, 2013, 2:09 pm

April 4th, 2018, 9:25 pm #7

is explicit: he, and two other crews, flew to Rhodes in June to pick up 3 brand new Bf110s. (He does not specify the sub-type; the idea the were E-trops is mine because they had deep radiators and other topicalized equipment). They flew to Aleppo in Syria, spent a few days there, and returned, in those 3 planes, to Rhodes. At that time they had just four 198 gallon tanks left. So one pilot sick with diarrhea got two, and Drewes and another pilot struggled with the asymmetric load of one tank each.
Check my reply to Modeldads "What if"response above for a description of photos in this book. A D-3 would explain the under fuselage oil tank shown in one of these photos: but I have not seen that equipment on any other Bf110 in Iraqi markings. Could an E trop carry that tank? Or were some D's upgraded to tropical radiators?
Richard
The on captured by the RAF, "Belle of Berlin" was simply an E-1.
Last edited by samodeldad on April 4th, 2018, 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steven “Modeldad” Eisenman

'Storm's A-Comin' Baby'
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Joined: February 28th, 2005, 12:37 pm

April 4th, 2018, 11:06 pm #8

The Stammkennzeichen do look painted on; yet, in most cases, there is no trace of then after removal. How was it done, and at what stage in the life of a Luftwaffe plane?
And how about Balkenkreuze? Could they be removed by the same method, i.e. w/o trace? I am building an Bf110E trop in Iraqi markings (delivered straight from the factory, in desert camouflage), and wondering whether it would have shown traces of Balkenkreuze and/or Code under the Iraqi triangle or not.
TIA, Richard
At last one photo published in Brasil shows him in front a Me 110 in Allepo with a small auxiliary tank under the fuselage I guess used for oil.
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Joined: December 4th, 2008, 6:41 am

April 5th, 2018, 4:51 am #9

Most have large underwing tanks.

Also note the 110Es had both short and boat tails to add to the confusion.

I did mine in 71/02.







to mailing a scan of the 2 photos to you?
Richard
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Joined: February 25th, 2012, 1:39 am

April 5th, 2018, 6:12 am #10

— sharing an image for personal, non-commercial use is not a copyright infringement. Generally, copyright law only applies to commerce.
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