handed Luftywaffe props

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handed Luftywaffe props

Joined: February 6th, 2016, 4:40 pm

January 13th, 2018, 7:17 pm #1

I'm thinking about getting UMM's Propmaster and this got me to contemplate the rotation of props on WWII Luftwaffe twin, quads and even the 6 engined types like the Me 323 and BV 222.
On twins, would be correct to have one engine rotating clockwise and the other counter-clockwise? If so, which rotation should the engine on the left and right wing have?
On the quads, would each engine on the same wing rotate the same direction or would they alternate i.e. on a FW 200 Condor or Ju 290 would the engines on the left wing rotate the same way or in alternate directions? Would those on the right wing repeat the same pattern as on the left wing or would they rotate in the same pattern or an alternating one?
How would the engines on a BV 222 or Me 323 be set up?
Finally, would aircraft role have an impact on the prop rotation of each engine?
I.e. would the pattern be different for am Ar 232 than a Me 264?
Thanks for reading this and I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions.
Thanks Peter M the Luftflotte 72 guy.
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 9:31 am

January 13th, 2018, 8:54 pm #2

In theory it is better to have props rotating top inwards (less asymmetric thrust when one engine stops). The advantage is small, however, and designing a motor for both left and right running takes considerable effort.
I know of no Luftwaffe type that had props rotating in opposite directions. Maybe the He 177 with its humongous props and the coupled motors?

Edit: Checked pictures. The He 177 indeed had opposing rotation. However, they rotate outward. (As do the props on the lightning, incidentally; in the case of the lightning the inward propwash apparently had adverse effects on the stabilizer.

Found one more type: The Hs 129. Also rotating outwards.

The Fw 200, the BV 222, the Ju 52, Ju 88, Me 110 and its derivatives, all had props rotating in the same direction. I read somewhere that it is mainly the mechanical superchargers that create a headache when reversing an engine's rotation.
Last edited by MarkusN on January 13th, 2018, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 14th, 2009, 5:29 pm

January 13th, 2018, 11:00 pm #3

I'm thinking about getting UMM's Propmaster and this got me to contemplate the rotation of props on WWII Luftwaffe twin, quads and even the 6 engined types like the Me 323 and BV 222.
On twins, would be correct to have one engine rotating clockwise and the other counter-clockwise? If so, which rotation should the engine on the left and right wing have?
On the quads, would each engine on the same wing rotate the same direction or would they alternate i.e. on a FW 200 Condor or Ju 290 would the engines on the left wing rotate the same way or in alternate directions? Would those on the right wing repeat the same pattern as on the left wing or would they rotate in the same pattern or an alternating one?
How would the engines on a BV 222 or Me 323 be set up?
Finally, would aircraft role have an impact on the prop rotation of each engine?
I.e. would the pattern be different for am Ar 232 than a Me 264?
Thanks for reading this and I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions.
Thanks Peter M the Luftflotte 72 guy.
Peter,

Wake up and do some research - it's the FUN part of modeling! All you had to do was google images of the different aircraft you mention. I got suckered into doing your research for you.

First off, in real life it is not just as simple as "run the engine backwards" to have opposite rotation. It takes different internal parts to accommodate opposite rotation. So, "backwards" engines take extra effort to manufacture and would be used only in special circumstances dictated by aerodynamics. Look at the propellers to see the rotation direction.

Ju-290, Fw-200, Me-264, Ar-232, Ju-88, He-111, Me-110 all have engines that turn the same direction (google and see what direction).

Me-323, Hs-129 have counter rotating engines.

Your welcome.

C2j
Last edited by Cubs2jets on January 13th, 2018, 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Assembler of plastic model kits for over 50 years.
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Joined: January 19th, 2008, 5:08 am

January 13th, 2018, 11:42 pm #4

In theory it is better to have props rotating top inwards (less asymmetric thrust when one engine stops). The advantage is small, however, and designing a motor for both left and right running takes considerable effort.
I know of no Luftwaffe type that had props rotating in opposite directions. Maybe the He 177 with its humongous props and the coupled motors?

Edit: Checked pictures. The He 177 indeed had opposing rotation. However, they rotate outward. (As do the props on the lightning, incidentally; in the case of the lightning the inward propwash apparently had adverse effects on the stabilizer.

Found one more type: The Hs 129. Also rotating outwards.

The Fw 200, the BV 222, the Ju 52, Ju 88, Me 110 and its derivatives, all had props rotating in the same direction. I read somewhere that it is mainly the mechanical superchargers that create a headache when reversing an engine's rotation.
I'm going to guess that the Hs 129 had opposite rotating props because it was powered by Gnome-Rhone engines which became available after the fall of France. Quite a number of French twin-engined designs used opposite rotating props. When you consider the logistic troubles the French had getting all the parts needed for a working aircraft together in a timely manner (e.g. otherwise finished fighters sitting on the ground for lack of propellers) I doubt their engine policy helped things much.
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Joined: May 26th, 2005, 5:39 am

January 14th, 2018, 12:17 am #5

I'm thinking about getting UMM's Propmaster and this got me to contemplate the rotation of props on WWII Luftwaffe twin, quads and even the 6 engined types like the Me 323 and BV 222.
On twins, would be correct to have one engine rotating clockwise and the other counter-clockwise? If so, which rotation should the engine on the left and right wing have?
On the quads, would each engine on the same wing rotate the same direction or would they alternate i.e. on a FW 200 Condor or Ju 290 would the engines on the left wing rotate the same way or in alternate directions? Would those on the right wing repeat the same pattern as on the left wing or would they rotate in the same pattern or an alternating one?
How would the engines on a BV 222 or Me 323 be set up?
Finally, would aircraft role have an impact on the prop rotation of each engine?
I.e. would the pattern be different for am Ar 232 than a Me 264?
Thanks for reading this and I'm looking forward to your comments and suggestions.
Thanks Peter M the Luftflotte 72 guy.
Frex, in the case of the DH Hornet/Sea Hornet, both engines ran the same way, but one engine had an additional gear at the front of the engine block that reversed the rotation of the propeller.

The Allison engine was designed in the firs place to rotate in either direction by changing just a few parts. This meant that the P-38, whatever its other maintenance headaches might have been, at least it didn't have to rely of two different engines. And it's noteworthy that it had turbosuperchargers instead of mechanical ones.
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Joined: December 24th, 2002, 10:24 pm

January 14th, 2018, 12:28 am #6

Peter,

Wake up and do some research - it's the FUN part of modeling! All you had to do was google images of the different aircraft you mention. I got suckered into doing your research for you.

First off, in real life it is not just as simple as "run the engine backwards" to have opposite rotation. It takes different internal parts to accommodate opposite rotation. So, "backwards" engines take extra effort to manufacture and would be used only in special circumstances dictated by aerodynamics. Look at the propellers to see the rotation direction.

Ju-290, Fw-200, Me-264, Ar-232, Ju-88, He-111, Me-110 all have engines that turn the same direction (google and see what direction).

Me-323, Hs-129 have counter rotating engines.

Your welcome.

C2j
You're welcome.
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Joined: February 6th, 2016, 4:40 pm

January 14th, 2018, 5:36 pm #7

Frex, in the case of the DH Hornet/Sea Hornet, both engines ran the same way, but one engine had an additional gear at the front of the engine block that reversed the rotation of the propeller.

The Allison engine was designed in the firs place to rotate in either direction by changing just a few parts. This meant that the P-38, whatever its other maintenance headaches might have been, at least it didn't have to rely of two different engines. And it's noteworthy that it had turbosuperchargers instead of mechanical ones.
Hi:

First, sorry if I offended anyone, I am honestly not skilled enough at photo interpretation to actually determine this out on my own. Perhaps I was also unclear about "engine rotation" vs. "prop blade orientation".
To sum up, it appears that most Luftwaffe A/C using German engines only rotated in one direction, however I want to know if their prop blades were handed differently depending on their location, orientation and the actual qty of engines on any particular A/C.
So this having been said, were the prop blades handed the same way (i.e. to the left or the right) on all/most Luftwaffe A/C or did they favor a left or right-handed orientation depending on their location and qty? I do know that Me-109's completed/rebuilt after the war for the Czech air force had engines that rotated in an opposite direction to the engines used by German built 109's {and were nicknamed "Mules" by their pilots} because of the different rudder correction that had to be applied to counter this rotation on take-off and landing. So my question should be "were the Cezch and German props "handed" differently?". Can this information be used/applied to other Luftwaffe A/C?
I'm asking this because, as you know, several kit makers often do not mold the prop and its blades in one large piece and this triggered my initial question and my interest in the Prop-master.
Thanks again.

Peter M the Luftflotte 72 guy.
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Joined: February 6th, 2016, 4:40 pm

January 14th, 2018, 5:36 pm #8

Frex, in the case of the DH Hornet/Sea Hornet, both engines ran the same way, but one engine had an additional gear at the front of the engine block that reversed the rotation of the propeller.

The Allison engine was designed in the firs place to rotate in either direction by changing just a few parts. This meant that the P-38, whatever its other maintenance headaches might have been, at least it didn't have to rely of two different engines. And it's noteworthy that it had turbosuperchargers instead of mechanical ones.
Hi:

First, sorry if I offended anyone, I am honestly not skilled enough at photo interpretation to actually determine this out on my own. Perhaps I was also unclear about "engine rotation" vs. "prop blade orientation".
To sum up, it appears that most Luftwaffe A/C using German engines only rotated in one direction, however I want to know if their prop blades were handed differently depending on their location, orientation and the actual qty of engines on any particular A/C.
So this having been said, were the prop blades handed the same way (i.e. to the left or the right) on all/most Luftwaffe A/C or did they favor a left or right-handed orientation depending on their location and qty? I do know that Me-109's completed/rebuilt after the war for the Czech air force had engines that rotated in an opposite direction to the engines used by German built 109's {and were nicknamed "Mules" by their pilots} because of the different rudder correction that had to be applied to counter this rotation on take-off and landing. So my question should be "were the Cezch and German props "handed" differently?". Can this information be used/applied to other Luftwaffe A/C?
I'm asking this because, as you know, several kit makers often do not mold the prop and its blades in one large piece and this triggered my initial question and my interest in the Prop-master.
Thanks again.

Peter M the Luftflotte 72 guy.
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Joined: December 2nd, 2017, 6:52 pm

January 14th, 2018, 5:43 pm #9

Some guys here forget to take their med's in the morning. It was certainly a legitimate question as are all questions.
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Joined: August 9th, 2006, 9:31 am

January 15th, 2018, 6:01 am #10

Hi:

First, sorry if I offended anyone, I am honestly not skilled enough at photo interpretation to actually determine this out on my own. Perhaps I was also unclear about "engine rotation" vs. "prop blade orientation".
To sum up, it appears that most Luftwaffe A/C using German engines only rotated in one direction, however I want to know if their prop blades were handed differently depending on their location, orientation and the actual qty of engines on any particular A/C.
So this having been said, were the prop blades handed the same way (i.e. to the left or the right) on all/most Luftwaffe A/C or did they favor a left or right-handed orientation depending on their location and qty? I do know that Me-109's completed/rebuilt after the war for the Czech air force had engines that rotated in an opposite direction to the engines used by German built 109's {and were nicknamed "Mules" by their pilots} because of the different rudder correction that had to be applied to counter this rotation on take-off and landing. So my question should be "were the Cezch and German props "handed" differently?". Can this information be used/applied to other Luftwaffe A/C?
I'm asking this because, as you know, several kit makers often do not mold the prop and its blades in one large piece and this triggered my initial question and my interest in the Prop-master.
Thanks again.

Peter M the Luftflotte 72 guy.
Apart from some very early designs (pre WW I) all prop blades have a twist. That gives you an indication on the sense of rotation. Twist is such that the pitch angle is less at the tip, compensating for the longer arc the prop is covering there.

Oh, and the bulged side of the blade profile goes to the front.

In the case of counter-rotating props you'd still have to figure out which side has which sense of rotation. Hopefully instructions help with that.
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