"Fatal Shores" (the founding of Australia); a shocking eye-opener for this American....

"Fatal Shores" (the founding of Australia); a shocking eye-opener for this American....

Joined: February 27th, 2005, 4:16 am

August 16th, 2012, 7:55 pm #1

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil
Last edited by bondo455 on August 16th, 2012, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 26th, 2005, 11:53 pm

August 16th, 2012, 8:24 pm #2

I read it in the early 90s when it first came out in paperback. I couldnt put it down!

Robert Hughes (who passed away just recently) was a brilliant author and speaker (If you can find the program, Shock Of The NEw, check it out). His writing style made this history come alive for me. Unforgettable. I lent my copy to a friend of the family that retired from the State Department after many years working in the middle and far east, and he considered it THE best history of a nation he had ever read.
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Joined: February 26th, 2005, 11:53 pm

August 16th, 2012, 8:27 pm #3

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hughes_%28critic%29
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Joined: August 19th, 2007, 7:23 am

August 16th, 2012, 11:32 pm #4

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil
....that's something I would like to read, and I have some friends who would be interested as well.



1/32 scale - Go big or go home.
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Joined: April 4th, 2006, 7:00 pm

August 17th, 2012, 12:44 am #5

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil


A very sobering and detailed look at Hitler's and Stalin's mass killings of civilians and POWs from 1933 (Ukraine starvation from collectivization) through the aftermath of WW2. It's way worse than I ever even imagined.

Lee G.
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Joined: February 26th, 2005, 11:53 pm

August 17th, 2012, 3:54 am #6

By Robert Conquest.
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Joined: March 17th, 2005, 8:05 am

August 17th, 2012, 6:30 am #7

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil
http://www.amazon.ca/National-Crime-Can ... 64-3341454
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Joined: January 25th, 2005, 2:13 am

August 17th, 2012, 9:54 am #8

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil
-d combined to make our country a weird mix of all sorts of classes with a laid back attitude underlying everything, but we seem to be evolving okay despite the usual issues...
Last edited by damian.edwards on August 17th, 2012, 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: April 4th, 2006, 7:00 pm

August 17th, 2012, 2:25 pm #9

By Robert Conquest.
...the obvious difference between that and the Snyder book is that Snyder's work chronicles the broad picture of civilian and POW mass killing in what he terms "the bloodlands" of eastern Europe from the 1930s through the 1940s. Snyder describes the historical contexts, the rise of Nazism, and of communism's evolution into Stalinism.

Snyder describes Stalin's forced collectivization and the policies thereof that caused the initial shortages, which in turn motivated Stalin to punish the "kulaks" for withholding food with deliberate starvation. The Stalinist purges of the late 1930s are chronicled. The background of Stalin's shaky alliance with Hitler, the geo-political environment and ideologies that culminated in mass killings are all discussed in detail:

- Stalin's mass deportations and killings.
- Stalin's murder of the Polish army officers.
- The evolution of the Nazi's "manifest destiny" in the east (a land-based utopia to match the unconquerable British empire)
- The mutul enmity of the Poles that Hitler and Stalin exploited to divide Poland.
- Mass murder by deliberate starvation and shooting of Soviet POWs in addition to their enslavement as forced labor. (Over 55% of all Soviet POWs held by Germany would die.)
- The evolution of the Nazi's solutions for the Jewish problem.
- The systematic destruction, enslavement, and deportation of eastern Europe populations by the Nazis.
- etc. etc.

We in the west have been brought up to believe that the concentration camps represented the worst of the Nazi atrocities, but Snyder expounds that we've been mislead by the admittedly horrific images from Auschwitz-Bierkenau, etc. By the time Auschwitz was in full operation as a combined work camp and death facility, the majority of Jews who would be killed were already dead. Sobibor, Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno, et al., and mass shootings east of the Molotov-Ribbentrop line had already accounted for most of the region's Jews. (The Nazis and their collaborators had already shot over a million Jews by the end of 1941 east of the Molotov-Ribbentrop line.)

I'm still reading the book. I admit that it's changed my way of thinking a little about the Germans, particularly in the east.

Regards,

Lee G.
Last edited by leegee_77 on August 17th, 2012, 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 2nd, 2005, 8:00 pm

August 17th, 2012, 2:33 pm #10

Wow; unbelievable! Most of us are painfully aware of the human atrocities of the Axis Powers, Stalin's purges and The Great Leap Forward. But, just two centuries ago, one of the most developed, "progressive" countries of Western Europe visited somewhat similar treatment on approximately 160,000 of its own citizenery for some eighty years, eg. "Transportation", or exile from England--usually for a minimum of seven years--to the desolate, newly discovered, continent of Australia....for even the most petty of crimes, many of which would today often be judged misdemeanors.

Yeah, yeah, we Vark pukes used to joke with the fine (always!) Aussie exchange aircrew members who became our squadron compatriots--great "sticks" and party-ers all--re their "convict" past. But, I never dreamed how terrible that past really was, or how important it was to the present-day makeup and fierce, law-abiding independence of our Australian ally. Aussie author Robert Hughes' thick book, "The Fatal Shore; the epic of Australia's founding" lays it painfully out year by year from the late 1700s through the late 1800s. The horrific treatment of prisoners, especially on dreaded Norfolk island, is sometimes difficult to read, but your correspondent is sticking with it. Highly recommended.

Phil
and they contain so many "unheard" of truths about the world; education does wonders and it's too bad it's almost always under attack. BTW Robert Hughes just recently passed away in case you didn't hear. cheers, LL

So a friend says: "cheer up things could be worse; so I cheered up and sure as hell Things Got Worse!
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