Smith & Wesson 94 & Chubb Detainer (Arrest) question

Chris Gower
Chris Gower

December 10th, 2005, 6:33 pm #11

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Yes it os true that I have picked open the Chubb Escort Handcuffs.
As Ian said the small Chubb AVA mechanism padlocks can be picked open normally in less than 3 minutes using a thin T shaped pick and a raking action with slight turning tension.
The problem comes with the larger padlocks and Handcuffs. These have either 10 discs (earlier models or 9 discs on the latter models) and they also have anti-pick notces on the discs. There are 3 different discs, although 5 different cuts on the key - cuts 1&5 and 2&4 are the same disc but reversed.
To pick open the handcuffs and decode it was necessary to make a secure jig to hold the cuffs absolutely upright without any movement, it was then necessary to decide what the cuts were on the 1st disc - this was a little hit and miss but once decided using a 2nd L shape indexed pick it was possible to position the other discs until the cuffs opened. It still took over 10 hours and even having decoded the cuffs took about 10 attempts to cut a working key and that was using the recommended key cutting machine.
I have had the pleasure to meet John Falle and his picks really are out of this world eg he sold me a pin decoder pick which sends a very thin wire up the side of the pins and measures their height!! His AVA pick works on a different principle to my opening method and although I was a member of the British Locksmith Institite its sale is restricted to Government officials.
Chris Gower
PS seems there are 2 Chris's from England where are you from Chris?
Quote
Share

Mark Lyons
Mark Lyons

December 10th, 2005, 11:01 pm #12

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Hi.
Yes Guenter, I stand corrected. I did mean to discuss the Escort model Chubb cuff. Thanks for clarifying this error.

The Detainer rightfully should be among the most difficult cuff to pick open, but I considered the Escort to be near impossible. The picking skills of Chris and Ian demonstrates that anything man can make---a man can pick. Very impressive guys! I was not aware that a pick existed that could pick this style lock. In lieu of this discovery, I wonder if the Peerless 710 might be considered the most pick resistant cuff ever made. I have heard of and met a young girl at the WCLC show 2 years ago that claimed that she can pick Medeco mortise cylinders with a high degree or certainty. She and her family told of a trip to Tahiti complements of Medeco after demonstrating her ability. It was hard to believe and wonder if any of you know of this or any other proven Medeco lock compromise.

mark O--O
Quote
Share

The Amazing Michael
The Amazing Michael

December 11th, 2005, 12:14 am #13

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Mark, many people have picked Medeco locks. I have picked them before, Santini has done it, and so has Ian. With all of the new and improved stuff that has come out in recent years, like Assa, Kaba, Schlage Primus, Abus Plus, Abloy, and Mul-T-lock (not to mention all of the electronic and biometric stuff that is out now) I didn't think that picking the old Medeco Biaxial stuff was even a big deal any more.


Cheers, Mike
Quote
Share

Joined: March 26th, 2005, 5:36 pm

December 11th, 2005, 1:42 am #14

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
hi chris, thanks for the answer to my question, i was surprised to hear that the chubb was pickable back then, (6 plus years ago), it would seem that we should have met at some point, we both know jim stewart and alex nichols... plus a few others, i will be back in england for christmas, (i live in b.c. canada now), a trip to alex's is planned, perhaps we may yet meet...a visit to jims is also a possibility.....ttfn.c.
Quote
Like
Share

Mark Lyons
Mark Lyons

December 11th, 2005, 2:25 am #15

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
I haven't heard of these successful attempts at picking Medeco locks before. I would love to hear about each of these triumphs.
Some questions:
How many pins were in the cylinder?
Was it 1st generation Medeco or was it Biaxial?
What type of cylinder was it?
Do you think that you can pick the new m3 cores?

Thanks for sharing your Medeco victories here.

mark
O--O
Quote
Share

The Amazing Michael
The Amazing Michael

December 11th, 2005, 3:18 am #16

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Mark, I can only speak for myself and my own experiences here. My lock was a 6-pin Biaxial with a fully funcional side bar and mushroom and standard drivers. It was/is a padlock that I bought from my old boss at Blue Star Safe and Lock in Dearborn Hts. It was a trade-in lock that had been laying around the shop for some time and it only had one key. If I dig around a little bit, I have some pictures of the lock and a close up of the turned plug; I can e-mail them to you when I find them.

As far as their new stuff, I have opened the "KeyMark" cylinder once....but that is nothing more than an akward keyway, a mushroom driver in every other pin-chamber, and a very tight tolerance. I have not seen the newest line yet so I can't say weather I might be able to pick it or not. I don't spend nearly as much time picking as I did years ago. I picked the Medeco for the first time back in Aug. 2001 and once I did that, it was almost like reaching the top of the mountain. A few months ago, I spent a couple of hours working on a Medeco IC core mortise cylinder but, I didn't have any luck. Just to keep my skills up, I started playing around with some regular pin tumbler locks with mushroom drivers and did quite well. I'm not as quick as I use to be but, I still turned all of the plugs.

Give me your e-mail address and I will put you on my contacts list. You can send me a hello e-mail and I can get it that way if you want. My e-mail is mindhunter42 at hotmail dot com.


Cheers, Mike
Quote
Share

Ian Mccoll
Ian Mccoll

December 11th, 2005, 6:45 am #17

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Hi Mark, Medeco is a nice lock to pick. I have had about ten cylinders to play with and picked about half of them. Due to the manufacturing process, some you can and some you cannot, within a minute you can work out if you should be able to or not.

Of those you work out csan be picked, you will either have to pick sidebar first or inline pins first. Then work on the other. rotating the pins is not a problem as you run the pick in the edge of the keyway and this rotates the pins by nature of their beveled point.

Bi axial is no harder than regular, nothing has been changed within the actaul lock, only the bevel of the pin being fore or aft, the rest is the same.

The easiest to pick are the cam locks without top pins and the above mentioned cylinder were all six pin.

All the locks picked by myself were at my leisure, while in a relaxed state and comfortable position and not fitted to doors with customers telling me it's quciker on TV" or being outide in stormy weather.

Ian
PS Mark, do you want a list of all the high security cylinders I have picked. I used to keep a list and letter from locksmtihs who would provided me the cylinders or padlocks and a letter to say i had picked them.
Quote
Share

The Amazing Michael
The Amazing Michael

December 12th, 2005, 3:14 am #18

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Mark, I e-mailed you some photos of the Medeco lock mentioned above. If you fail to get them or anything, let me know so I can resend them.


Cheers, Mike
Quote
Share

Mark Lyons
Mark Lyons

December 12th, 2005, 7:51 am #19

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Amazing Michael,
You are amazing! I did get the pictures of the picked lock. Although it is very easy to pin up a plug and insert it into the cylinder housing in a 45 degree angle to make it look like it was picked, I will believe you, Ian and Chris when you tell me that you guys have done it. I have been selling Medeco for over 25 years and my stores have one of the top 10 highest gross Medeco sales in Southern California, but I never even heard of one being picked except for the young girl at the lock show.
Of course my sales reps don't discuss this on their own initiative, but I will ask them the next time they come around.
I remember trying to pick one long ago, but I only gave it a modest attempt.
The new m3 design should make it more challenging as there is now an added push bar that interlocks with the sidebar. I have been selling this new version for only a month now.
If anyone can pick this model, it would really be something extraordinary.
I will have to give this brand lock another picking attempt soon. I will try it with 3 pins at first and work my way up to 6.
Thanks you guys for bringing this to my attention.

mark
O--O
Quote
Share

Ian McColl
Ian McColl

December 12th, 2005, 12:13 pm #20

Hello I will like to know if it is true that one can open of Smith & Wesson model 94 with a pen or if it is a rumour? Also I would like to know if Chubb Detainer (Arrest) are hard or easy to open without key? Are Chubb Detainer of good handcuffs? Thanks.
Hi Mark, I would love to try this new medecom, could you send me any info so I would know what I am up against and a cylinder without keys. I would love to see if i can post it back unlocked.

Ian
Quote
Share


Confirmation of reply: