halifax aircraft MZ599. MP-U

halifax aircraft MZ599. MP-U

Joined: December 4th, 2004, 2:01 pm

December 4th, 2004, 2:07 pm #1

i am looking for any information regarding this aircraft and its crew (names etc) - i believe its crew were the 76 sqd an dit completed over 40 ops
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Joined: November 25th, 2004, 4:46 pm

December 5th, 2004, 1:11 am #2

MZ599 was issued to 76 Squadron on the 24th of April 1944, and stayed with the squadron until she was lost at the end of October 1944. Unfortunately the Form 78 "Movement Card" doesn't show the operations she flew, but it does show the total number of flying hours on the airframe - a very respectable 256.

L/O

Greg

"You can take the boy out of Wales,
But you cannot takes Wales out of the boy"
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76sqn
76sqn

December 5th, 2004, 8:29 am #3

i am looking for any information regarding this aircraft and its crew (names etc) - i believe its crew were the 76 sqd an dit completed over 40 ops
this halifax was made by the english electric company and arrived at 76sqn on april 24, 1944.the airframe flew 51 operations and was lost on october 28, 1944.the mission was Westkappelle and she crashed in the sea off Walcharen island, Holland.the crew were:
s/ldr r t langton
f/o j s corry
f/o j c cossins
sgt e care
sgt r w mcgraine
sgt f g whittaker
sgt w l sandiland
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Joined: November 25th, 2004, 4:46 pm

December 5th, 2004, 10:28 am #4

Hi,

Have you got a list of those 51 operations? The flying hours recorded on the airframe seem quite low for an aircraft that flew 51 ops

Thanks in advance for anything you can offer.

L/O

Greg

"You can take the boy out of Wales,
But you cannot takes Wales out of the boy"
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1943
1943

December 5th, 2004, 10:57 am #5

sorry, only have the mission totals or this hally.additionally, Care's body did in fact wash up on the dutch cost......his being the only one who did.thanx to you, lanc man.
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1943
1943

December 5th, 2004, 11:03 am #6

by the way....airframe hours may in fact not be low at all.approx 5 hours per mission times 50 missions=250 hours.this, of course provided the information we share includes only mission hours.also provided this hally only flew her hours on missions........could be possible.anyone else?
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Joined: November 25th, 2004, 4:46 pm

December 5th, 2004, 11:20 am #7

Hi again,

In my experience, airframe hours as recorded on the Movement Cards are the total of all flying hours, and not just operational flying hours. Typically, training flights, test flights, familiarisation flights, transit flights, etc., generally acount for about a third of all hours logged on an airframe - this would give about 170 (approx) operational "battle" hours on this airframe, giving MZ599 an average of little over 3 hours per operation.

Whilst some ops could be as low as 5 hours, very few (save for some of the French and Belgian targets in the spring and summer of 1944) would drop below 5 hours. However, as this Hallibag was on squadron strength through that Spring and summer, it is quite possible that she did a lot of relatively short trips, which would account for the high number of operations flown when set against the (comparably)low number of airframe hours. It is worth bearing in mind though that by the end of August 1944, Bomber Command had commenced a wholesale return to German targets, and an average operation for a Halifax flying from the north of England to Germany would be considerably more than either the 3 or 5 hours mentioned above!! With this in mind, i would suggest that either the airframe hours on the Movement Card are rather wide of the mark, or that your total of 51 operations is a little optimistic. Without having access to the complete list of operations that she flew (and i don't have the 76 Squadron ORB in my files so i am unable to check) it is difficult to ascertain which set of figures is correct.

Does anyone else on this board have access to the 76 Squadron ORB and thus be able to add some element of provenance to our friend's claim that MZ599 flew 51 operations?

Yours hopefully!!

L/O

Greg

"You can take the boy out of Wales,
But you cannot takes Wales out of the boy"
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John K. Stenwig
John K. Stenwig

December 9th, 2004, 12:11 am #8

The "claim" of 51 ops must have been taken from W.R. Chorley book "To see the dawn breaking".

According to the same book 76 sqn flew 80 missions in the given periode. Of this only 13 seems to be targets in Germany, and not more than 5 or 6 was to the more distant tagrets like Kiel or Stuttgart.
Looking in my fathers logbook, flying out from Linton on Ouse in 1943, a trip to the Northwestern parts of Germany took about 5 hours,
Wilhelmshafen 5:10, 4:45 and 5:00, Duisburg 5:20, 5:10 and 5:00, Cologne 4:15, Essen 5:45 and 4:45.
Of cause wind and routing could make quite a difference, but the airframe hour does not seem that unlikely.

Best regards from Norway

John K. Stenwig
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Linzee
Linzee

December 9th, 2004, 12:41 am #9

Hei to John K Stenwig fra Linzee!

Good to see you here. Can you tell me if the book your father wrote has ever been published in English yet or if there are plans for this?

Beste hilsen
Linzee
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Joined: November 25th, 2004, 4:46 pm

December 9th, 2004, 1:14 am #10

The "claim" of 51 ops must have been taken from W.R. Chorley book "To see the dawn breaking".

According to the same book 76 sqn flew 80 missions in the given periode. Of this only 13 seems to be targets in Germany, and not more than 5 or 6 was to the more distant tagrets like Kiel or Stuttgart.
Looking in my fathers logbook, flying out from Linton on Ouse in 1943, a trip to the Northwestern parts of Germany took about 5 hours,
Wilhelmshafen 5:10, 4:45 and 5:00, Duisburg 5:20, 5:10 and 5:00, Cologne 4:15, Essen 5:45 and 4:45.
Of cause wind and routing could make quite a difference, but the airframe hour does not seem that unlikely.

Best regards from Norway

John K. Stenwig
John,

The data you mention in your post of trips in the order of 4.15, 4.45, 5.00, 5.10 etc., still does not add up to only marginally more than 3 hours per trip if the "claim" of number of trips as set agaianst the airframe hours are considered.

I take on board your point about Chorley's book, but quite simply, the only way to add any kind of provenance at all would be to look at the ORB for 76 Sqn. I don't have it, hence my enquiry above as to whether anyone else did. The trouble with books is that if data is written into them that the author has included and is unwittingly incorrect, it becomes cast in stone and the false nature of said data becomes cast in stone.

Do not misread the contect of my word "claim" in my original posting John - i think you did in your reply - it was merely meant to suggest that either the airframe hours or the number of trips flown were incorrect.

L/O

Greg

"You can take the boy out of Wales,
But you cannot takes Wales out of the boy"
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