On Saluting and Veterans, Military Retirees, etc.

On Saluting and Veterans, Military Retirees, etc.

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 25th, 2006, 5:08 pm #1

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 25th, 2006, 5:16 pm #2

MILINET: Resps (4) "Hand Salute Vice Hand Over Heart For Vets--MG Vernon Lewis, USA (Ret.) Inbox

MAJUSMCRET@aol.com
to undisclosed-re.
More options 7:40 am (4 hours ago)
25 March

MILINET: Resps (4) "Hand Salute Vice Hand Over Heart For Vets--MG Vernon Lewis, USA (Ret.)

========================

This is just plain silly.

We know what to do.

In civies… hand over heart.

In uniform … salute.

In American Legion etc hat… salute is ok.

Otherwise… we have served our time and in spite of our voracious lobbying organizations… a little modesty is becoming.

Right?

T. Lipscomb

------------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

Not so silly. By permitting vets to salute, it would recognize their contribution to this country--military service. The hand-salute is unique to the military and having vets use it would signal to those others in attendance that they stand with those who have served.

It is my understanding that retired Army officers return hand-salutes with a hand-salute when they are in mufti on military installations.

Semper Salute,

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)

-----------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

Anthony,
As I recall, Marines do not hand salute when uncovered. We just stood at
attention. I see no reason to change.

Semper fidelis,
Ned Dolan
Capt., USMC(Ret)

-----------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE------

At two predominatly Marine functions over the past two weeks, we stood and placed our hands over hearts for the colors and the National Anthem.

Semper Salute,

Anthony F. Milavic
Major USMC (Ret.)

---------------------------END RESPONSES-------



----------------------------------END RESPONSES--------------


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 25th, 2006, 6:53 pm #3

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As the general points out that there is no actual requirement for veterans to place the right hand over the heart, and likewise no actual restriction on saluting, there is nothing preventing any veteran from either saluting, hand on the heart, or otherwise or doing nothing at all.

Apparently, all have just assumed that the hand over heart has been a requirement all along, whereas it is just something in certain guidelines.

I would like to see actual requirements on this if available.


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html</a" target="_new">http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html</a>
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
<a href="http://network54.com/Forum/135069</a" target="_new">http://network54.com/Forum/135069</a>
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
<a href="http://gunnyg.blogspot.com</a" target="_new">http://gunnyg.blogspot.com</a>
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last edited by Dick Gaines on March 25th, 2006, 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 26th, 2006, 3:39 pm #4

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From what I have seen from several sources thus far--my own messageboards, messageboards where I have posted this info, and other messageboards where others have also posted this info, plus my own e-mail and e-mail from others--the response is overwhelmingly in favor of the hand salute over the hand over heart--both retirees and veterans alike.

I would point out that there is apparently no organized effort as such on this thing, General Lewis has simply sent out e-mail and veterans and retired military responding; some stating that they will introduce the material to their military service organizations, etc. That is, in fact, what the general has suggested. In the event this develops into some sort of unified/organized movement, I would like to know about it, as I do have numerous messageboards/websites online.

Ref
Gunny G's...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/135069/

Please keep me informed.

Semper Fidelis
Dick Gaines
GyG
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 26th, 2006, 6:50 pm #5

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) on his suggestion regarding saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.

Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously to be within the judgment of the individual.

General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG
~~~~
~~~~
By coincidence this comes up now as it has for a long time been my opinion that veterans, including retired military, should render the hand salute rather than placing their right hand over the heart, at least those desiring to do so. To the military man what could be more natural than saluting? Then, this being so for most, why do we just stand at attention, hand on heart, etc. while we really feel that we should be rendering the hand salute?

The answer is that we ASSUME that that is NOT the correct thing to do, not acceptable, against regulations, etc. NOT SO!, and General
Lewis makes that point clear in his email, above. Too often we assume things that are just not there, not so.

Gen Lewis' piece has been widely circulated on the Internet these last few days. His own poll on MOAA has shown responses overwhelmingly in favor of the hand salute over the hand over heart. Other messageboards, e-mails that I have viewed indicate the same.

Some do not understand that by many of us changing to the hand salute over the hand over heart would NOT then preclude those who wish to do so from continuing their preference of placing their right hand on heart. It is just NOT an either/or situation; each can read this information and decide to what he/she wishes to. Still others tend to make this simple and clear issue complicated by bringing up, for instance, naval personnel not saluting indoors, covered/uncovered, etc. None of these things affect the issue as stated by Gen Lewis; individuals will continue to use their best personal judgment in each case.

The main drawback in what Gen Lewis is attempting to do, I think, is in getting the word out to all veterans/retired miltary personnel. There is no organization behind this. But it has to be made clear that this suggestion of his does not constitute a change to any regulation at all. As he states, there is no regulation to begin with to preclude veterans.retirees from rendering the hand salute if we so choose! Those choosing the hand over heart are also free to do so.

So then, those of us who agree with the general, should make every effort to spread the word on this not just to individual veterans, but to military/veteran-related organizations.

Semper Fidelis
Dick G

Gunny G's....
<a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/135069/</a" target="_new">http://www.network54.com/Forum/135069/</a>
_________________



~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html</a" target="_new">http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html</a>
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
<a href="http://network54.com/Forum/135069</a" target="_new">http://network54.com/Forum/135069</a>
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
<a href="http://gunnyg.blogspot.com</a" target="_new">http://gunnyg.blogspot.com</a>
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last edited by Dick Gaines on March 27th, 2006, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: March 26th, 2006, 10:54 pm

March 26th, 2006, 11:02 pm #6

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Good advice there, Gunny. I generally feel uncomfortable saluting uncovered, but once in a while I pop my boss (former Marine Lt, '57-'59) a hand salute first thing in the morning. He really gets a kick out of it.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 27th, 2006, 12:21 am #7

Happy to see ya here.
Will be interesting to see if this thing by Gen Lewis gets rolling or not--especially w/no organization to push it, just word-of-mouth.
S/F
Dick


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 27th, 2006, 1:35 pm #8

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MILINET: 2nd Resps (8) "Hand Salute Vice Hand Over Heart For Vets--MG Vernon Lewis, USA (Ret.) Inbox

MAJUSMCRET@aol.com
to undisclosed-re.
More options 7:08 am (1 hour ago)
27 March

MILINET: 2nd Resps (8) "Hand Salute Vice Hand Over Heart For Vets--MG Vernon Lewis, USA (Ret.)

============================

Major, wanted to respond to Capt Dolan (ret). I just had a Marine go
through an NCO of the Quarter board where one of the questions he
missed (along with what are the six purposes of grenades) was,"What is
the proper position to be in while in civilian attire during the
morning colors?" He answered that a Marine should stand at the rigid
position of attention and was told that Marines in civilian clothes
are actually supposed to have our hands over our hearts under those
circumstances.

Learning new things about our Corps even after 14 years.

Semper Fidelis Sir
Gy

----------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

It has been my observation that Army officers do return salutes in mufti. Moreover, I have more than a vague recollection that we were taught as Lts that it was de regeur that Marine officers in civilian clothes while covered do return salutes when appropriate. As a matter of common practise, when I am saluted, I tend to return it as a common courtesy, covered or not, as the non-naval types lose the fine point of our not saluting when not covered.

PatG

---------------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----

Major,

“It is my understanding that retired Army officers return hand-salutes with a hand-salute when they are in mufti on military installations.”

You understand correctly, and it is indoors and outdoors, covered or un-covered.

Seeking some guidance on this, I asked a crusty old SF Colonel friend why the Army did this.
His response was telling: “Soldiers salute each other”.

I think the concept is a little disconcerting to Marines, but his sentiment is unassailable.
Disagree that it is in any way silly.

I do it on a regular basis to express my regard for those who have served.

Semper Fi,
Vic Young

---------------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE------

What's wrong with this? It separates the veterans from the civilians and it still shows respect. I would love to see a sporting event on TV and see a large group of people saluting instead of putting hand over heart, you would know that they were veterans.

I have canvassed our Purple Heart chapter and out of 25 % so far that have responded, all are in favor of the salute.

A little change now and then won't hurt anybody.

Semper Fi, John Cooney

---------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

At Yankee stadium in the '40s, as a civilian kid, I stood and placed my hand over my heart when the National Anthem was played . A civilian now, I'll do as I did then. The hand salute whilst in mufti is silly.

Al

----------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------

My vote, in civvies… hand over heart. We are believers in tradition,
and that's the tradition.

Bob Capeci

---------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE---------

From: Col Wayne Morris USMC (Ret)

Subject: Straw Poll Results for Hand Salute or Hand Over Heart Issue

ALCON:

Altho certainly not a scientific poll, the results of the "feeler" I put out on 21Mar06 are discussed below:

FINAL RESULTS:
521 Replies
457 YEA (88%)
64 NAY (12%)

Altho a few of the Enlisted responders attempted to make it an "Officer/Enl Issue," this ol' Mustang doesn't see it that way…nor did a much larger majority of NCOs/SNCOs of all Services and all eras…was really surprised at how many of the truly Old Salts (WWII/KOREA & both Enl/Off) are FOR it…!

MOST of the YES's were couched around that which Gen Lewis brought up in the Email forwarded by Gen Dula (that I received from MajGen Dave Richwine)…and…which I've added at the bottom of this page as a refresher.

They liked the idea of the show of camaraderie and that it would set MilVets apart, etc. Many mentioned that they had earned the right to render the Hand Salute and thought it more appropriate than the Hand Over the Heart tribute.

MOST of the NO's came from Marines & Sailors (then too, 87% of those responding were Marines & Sailors)…MOST citing the Naval Service protocol of being "uncovered" when inside…not rendering the Hand Salute uncovered/inside unless "under arms."

One Former Commandant of the Marine Corps responded NO…gave very sound reasons as for why not that were similar to other NO's.

Some of the NO's cited current (various) regs that fly in the face of Gen Lewis' comments about no regs telling Vets what they can/can't do in this matter…will not go into them here, but as some mentioned, perhaps these "regs" need to be revisited when considering that which we face in today's environment. Hard Core believers, however, have already said they'll have none of this. Some of the NO's were NO only because they discussed the current regs and were NOT against such a change IF current regs they cited (or still go by), were changed.

Additionally, some of the NO's were also concerned about "form"…in that they would rather see a Hand Over the Heart than the sloppy manner in which some Vets/Retirees (would) render the Hand Salute. While I can understand that, I can (living here next to CamLej) think of a whole helluva lotta AcDu types who "need to work" on their Hand Salute! Besides, no "new ground" is broken in this regard…age old issue. Would wager a cold one at SywanykS that there's probably some ol' salt, "up there with SKY-6" and reading this thru some sort of cyber space interface folks in Heaven have with the I-Net, who complained about the sloppy manner in which "Sir So-and-So" (some Knight of Olde) raised and lowered the visor on his helmet…!

Others simply don't want to change tradition.

And then…some NO's thought the whole thing rather ridiculous when considering some of the other issues ongoing in the World, at this time. Would comment on that perception but don't want to wade off too far into the rice paddies so as to get this out in a timely manner.

And as an Oh By The Way, quite a few folks piped up saying they have been rendering the Hand Salute all along since leaving the AcDu ranks…they don't care who doesn't like it and don't make the mistake of bringing it to their attention if you don't like it. Since I know some of these folks quite well, I just hope to be somewhere in the area when some poor soul decides to play Drill Instructor with them and show them the errors of their ways…! Oh yeah…most of them WERE Drill Instructors…! What an interesting group of folks I've come to know over these many years…!!!

------------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-------


Okay, a couple things come to mind. Don't we have more important things to consider right about now? Besides, what are you going to do when someone who never served in the military renders a hand salute (besides be glad he is rendering courtesy to the colors instead of fidgeting or picking his nose)? I find that 583 Veterans polled is not a true test of the waters. Yes, maybe an "overwhelming majority" of those "actually polled" want it, but we should also take a look at the VFW and Legion posts who never responded. They should figure into the "poll" also. Perhaps their lack of response should be taken to mean there are other more important matters at hand? So here is Woody's take. If you wish to render a hand salute, GO FOR IT!!!! Especially if you are former army where saluting indoors and/or without a cover (headgear) is authorized (do what you were raised to do). If you are a Marine, I expect you probably would not. Therefore if you prefer to place your hand against your heart as prescribed in the Drill Manual (excerpt below), then DO IT! The bottom line is show your respects, the way you were raised. We, Veterans know what the colors mean. We know about HONOR, COURAGE, COMMITMENT AND SACRAFICE and whether we render a hand salute or placed hand over heart will make little differential on the wretched few who will never have the Honor or pleasure of wearing the uniform. As the General states no one is going to tell us "NO" anyway. Just like we cannot enforce non-service members from not rendering a hand salute.

Semper rendering appropriate courtesy to the Colors,

Woody

----------------------------------END RESPONJSES------------------


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html</a" target="_new">http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html</a>
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
<a href="http://network54.com/Forum/135069</a" target="_new">http://network54.com/Forum/135069</a>
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
<a href="http://gunnyg.blogspot.com</a" target="_new">http://gunnyg.blogspot.com</a>
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last edited by Dick Gaines on March 27th, 2006, 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 1st, 1970, 12:00 am

March 28th, 2006, 1:36 pm #9

The following is from a widely circulated e-mail regarding a suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) and his suggestion on saluting vice hand over heart....
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~
I gathered some 16 of my old military friends who agreed to sponsor
a movement for Veterans to salute rather than place their hands over
their heart when honoring the flag, fallen comrades, and/or the
country. I have some from each of the four principal services. Three
of them were former Vice Chiefs or Assistant Commandants of their
services, and several were former CINC's.

We refer to saluting when we do the pledge to the flag, when the
National Colors pass or are presented, when the National Anthem or
honors are played, or when taps are played and firing squads or guns
render honors. We got MOAA magazine to ask veterans what they
preferred, hand over the heart or saluting. When last I looked, some
583 veteran respondents had voted 81% in favor of the salute. In
addition, my email address was in the questionnaire and I've had
about 150 responses, with all but a dozen or so in favor of the
salute. Obviously an overwhelming majority of the veterans want to
salute.

There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't
do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to
tell us "no"?

It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render
a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the
unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the
American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they
even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of
its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart
thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should.

Just imagine thousands of fans saluting at NFL, MBA, and Major
League Baseball games when the National Anthem is played. It will
telegraph a message to all others of how many have served this
country in the Armed Forces---it will be a positive and patriotic
message.

You can help by putting the word out in your organizations, which
are made up of patriots like you and me. Thanks, my friend.

Vernon B.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GyG Response:

I, personally, think this suggestion by MajGen Vern Lewis, USA (Ret.) is a good one. As he points out, there are no regulations regarding veterans and military retirees on this specific issue. It is a matter, therefore, of personal choice, and those still preferring the hand over the heart are not affected.
Those who bring up such things as various forms of civilain attire, naval personnel not saluting indoors/outdoors, covered/uncovered, etc. are confusing the issue that is very simple to begin with. Whether or not a salute would be appropriate in certain/all situations would obviously be within the judgment of the individual.

Again, General Lewis states, in part....
"There are no regulations telling us veterans what we can and can't do in this matter. If we decide we want to salute, who will dare to tell us "no"? It is a matter of personal choice. We've earned the right to render a salute. Now the challenge is to get the word out. I believe the unit and branch associations are the best way. The commanders of the American Legion and VFW never answered my emails, presuming they even got them. If we can get this started it will take on a life of its own. Those who object can continue the hand over the heart thing. Gradually the custom will change, as well it should."

I recall that in boot camp in 1952, we were instructed by one of our DIs, a corporal, on saluting. Among many other things, he pointed out that a salute was basically a form of military greeting, and that it was not uncommon for enlisted Marines to salute other Marines both well beyond the prescribed saluting distance, and in civilian clothes. I have since done so myself on many occasions.
-RWG


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MILINET: 3rd Resps (3) "Hand Salute Vice Hand Over Heart For Vets--MG Vernon Lewis, USA (Ret.) Inbox

MAJUSMCRET@aol.com
to undisclosed-re.
More options 7:46 am (48 minutes ago)
28 March

MILINET: 3rd Resps (3) "Hand Salute Vice Hand Over Heart For Vets--MG Vernon Lewis, USA (Ret.)

==========================

Never pass a law you can’t enforce.

Hep

----------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE-----

Enough regarding civilians! What gets me is that apparently active duty Marines in uniform now comfortably sit on their respective asses when the Marines' Hymn is struck up! In other days, snapping to attention with heels clicking when the first note occurred was "The Word," far more than merely de rigueur! This respectful action actually set us apart from the other Services. What's happened?

S/F

F

---------------------------ANOTHER RESPONSE----------

Let's not lose sight of one key point.....we ALL love our Country and our Flag. Just like religion we all have our own personal way of worshiping. What wrong with showing respect for our Country and Flag in different ways? If it is good for you....it doesn't hurt me or my feelings.....Jerry Turley

JERRY TURLEY

-------------------------END RESPONSE---------------


~~~~~~~~~~
R.W. "Dick" Gaines
GnySgt USMC (Ret.)
1952 (Plt #437)--'72
GyG's Globe and Anchor! --Sites & Forums
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/sites.html
GyG's Old Salt Marines Tavern ~Interactive~
http://network54.com/Forum/135069
Gunny G's Globe and Anchor Weblog
http://gunnyg.blogspot.com
~SITES/FORUMS FOR THE THINKING MARINE!~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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