Koreas

Koreas

Jeremy Hawthorn
Jeremy Hawthorn

April 23rd, 2012, 6:26 am #1

Even making allowance for biassed sources, this item suggests that building ICBMs should not be the first priority of the DPRK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17774210
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Friend of DPRK
Friend of DPRK

April 28th, 2012, 11:44 am #2

Instead of swallowing whole the lies of the BBC , why don't you go and visit the DPRK yourself . Indeed I am sure DPRK academics would welcome an exchange of views with you .

There is also an excellent booklet written by the UK Korean Friendship Association and JISGE which thoroughly exposes the lies of the imperialists against the DPRK
http://www.lulu.com/shop/dermot-hudson/ ... 09557.html
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paul fauvet
paul fauvet

April 29th, 2012, 9:47 am #3

I always find it amusing when apologists for the Kim dynasty respond to criticisms with the question: "Have you ever been there?" As if personal experience is the only way to make any judgements.

I recall my experiences from anti-apartheid demonstrations in the 1960s and 70s. When we were picketing the South African embassy in Trafalgar Square, ineveitably there were some right wing fools who would ask us "Have you ever been there?"

Well, no, I hadn't been to South Africa, but I knew about apartheid from the written sources and from South African comrades. Likewise with the US aggression against Indo-china. You didn't need to visit Vietnam in order to condemn the US war and support the Vietnamese.

And I don't need to visit North Korea to know what goes on there is a parody of Marxism. It is not an imperialist invention that supreme power in the DPRK has passed from father to son to grandson. That is a dynasty and has nothing to do with marxism,

It is not merely the western media that says the DPRK prioritises the military. That's the official DPRK line, Songun, which translates as "Military First". By replacing the working class with the military, the DPRK has violated basic socialist principles.

Kim il-Sung may have had some legitimacy from the struggle against Japanese imperialism. But who elected his son and his grandson? Have the Korean people ever been allowed to pose alternatives to the Kim dynasty? Or is that a counter-revolutionary question?

Can a group of North Koreans form a political party? Or an independent trade Union? Or publish a newsaper? Or set up a radio station?

I think we all know what would happen to anyone who tried.


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Jeremy Hawthorn
Jeremy Hawthorn

April 29th, 2012, 1:20 pm #4

I'm in general agreement with Paul Fauvet's posting. I'm sure that If I were to visit the DPRK I would meet only people who supported their leadership, who were well fed and clothed, and who rejected the idea that dissent would have very unpleasant consequences for them. Stage managed tours prove nothing. The Nazis had a model concentration camp that they got the Red Cross to visit during the war so that they could say that reports of mass murder were untrue. (Shortly after the visit most of the prisoners who had been encountered and filmed were dead.) And like Paul, my main objections to the DPRK (although not my only ones) are based on DPRK propaganda, not on what I read in the BBC.
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Cole
Cole

April 29th, 2012, 4:17 pm #5

Instead of swallowing whole the lies of the BBC , why don't you go and visit the DPRK yourself . Indeed I am sure DPRK academics would welcome an exchange of views with you .

There is also an excellent booklet written by the UK Korean Friendship Association and JISGE which thoroughly exposes the lies of the imperialists against the DPRK
http://www.lulu.com/shop/dermot-hudson/ ... 09557.html
There is also the issue that the DPRK stooges who visit North Korea, never actually see North Korea.

They just swan round Pyongyang with the officials and are taken on carefully controlled trips, so only ever see an extremely sanitised, and completely false, view of North Korea.

They do not see the abject poverty and slavery that the state is build upon.
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Francis King
Francis King

April 30th, 2012, 6:58 am #6

Instead of swallowing whole the lies of the BBC , why don't you go and visit the DPRK yourself . Indeed I am sure DPRK academics would welcome an exchange of views with you .

There is also an excellent booklet written by the UK Korean Friendship Association and JISGE which thoroughly exposes the lies of the imperialists against the DPRK
http://www.lulu.com/shop/dermot-hudson/ ... 09557.html
I've noticed that the first-hand reports of a holidaymaker, who knows little or no Korean, who is shown what he or she wants to see, and says it is all lovely, constitute a Good Source which should be taken on trust. On the other hand a native-born émigré, who has managed to get out of North Korea, and gives first-hand reports of the conditions which impelled him or her to leave, must be a Bad Source, and should on no account be given credence.
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Joined: March 7th, 2005, 4:44 pm

April 30th, 2012, 10:18 am #7

and what you say about the "Good Source" can equally be applied to the "Bad Source" because defectors will say whatever their new host wants them to say (at least until their new citizenship has been irrevocably granted). Defections in the Korean peninsula go both ways and those who go north paint a different picture of south Korean society -- a fact ignored by Messrs Cole, Fauvet and Hawthorn who only seek the truth if it is uttered by the likes of the BBC and the Voice of America. These are the august bodies that told us about the non-existent "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq and the "mass rapes" of Col Gaddafi's soldiers in Libya to drum up support for Nato wars.

Prof Hawthorn raises the question of the DPR Korea's propaganda which he clearly intensely dislikes and disbelieves. What he should remember is that the DPRK's propaganda is 90 per cent focused on south Korea and the overseas Korean community and not the world communist movement or what we used to call world public opinion.

South Korean propaganda is part of the global anti-communist barrage of lies against socialism and anyone opposed to what the Americans used to call the "free world" and more recently the "new world order".

South Korean propaganda is also, of course, primarily aimed at the north with ludicrous stories of the premature and secret deaths of all the Kims -- much like the bourgeois speculation on Brezhnev's imminent death which went on for years during the Cold War -- and bogus "documentary" footage of alleged labour camps prepared largely for the Western audience. I recall one shown a few years ago which purported to show a firing squad in action in some sort of detention camp near the border with China. The accents of all the actors were southern and the firing squad was based on the practice used by the US army rather than the DPRK method of capital punishment which would be carried out -- like China and the former USSR -- by a policeman. But crime is virtually non-existent in north Korea (unlike the south) -- a fact attested not only by the "tourists" Francis derides but also by the international aid experts that worked in the DPRK in the late 1990s when the DPRK was recovering from a spate of natural disasters.

Prof Hawthorn, and the others who still claim to be socialists on this board, should indeed visit the DPRK to see reality for itself instead of through the eyes of bourgeois propagandists.

pip,pip,

H A R Philby

(Col.ret'd)





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Jeremy Hawthorn
Jeremy Hawthorn

April 30th, 2012, 11:27 am #8

Well, the bourgeois media reported on who would be the next leader of the DPRK way before anything appeared from official sources. And these reports turned out to be right. So people in the capitalist world learned who the latest hereditary leader would be a long while before the people who actually lived in the country.
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Jeremy Hawthorn
Jeremy Hawthorn

April 30th, 2012, 11:38 am #9

and what you say about the "Good Source" can equally be applied to the "Bad Source" because defectors will say whatever their new host wants them to say (at least until their new citizenship has been irrevocably granted). Defections in the Korean peninsula go both ways and those who go north paint a different picture of south Korean society -- a fact ignored by Messrs Cole, Fauvet and Hawthorn who only seek the truth if it is uttered by the likes of the BBC and the Voice of America. These are the august bodies that told us about the non-existent "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq and the "mass rapes" of Col Gaddafi's soldiers in Libya to drum up support for Nato wars.

Prof Hawthorn raises the question of the DPR Korea's propaganda which he clearly intensely dislikes and disbelieves. What he should remember is that the DPRK's propaganda is 90 per cent focused on south Korea and the overseas Korean community and not the world communist movement or what we used to call world public opinion.

South Korean propaganda is part of the global anti-communist barrage of lies against socialism and anyone opposed to what the Americans used to call the "free world" and more recently the "new world order".

South Korean propaganda is also, of course, primarily aimed at the north with ludicrous stories of the premature and secret deaths of all the Kims -- much like the bourgeois speculation on Brezhnev's imminent death which went on for years during the Cold War -- and bogus "documentary" footage of alleged labour camps prepared largely for the Western audience. I recall one shown a few years ago which purported to show a firing squad in action in some sort of detention camp near the border with China. The accents of all the actors were southern and the firing squad was based on the practice used by the US army rather than the DPRK method of capital punishment which would be carried out -- like China and the former USSR -- by a policeman. But crime is virtually non-existent in north Korea (unlike the south) -- a fact attested not only by the "tourists" Francis derides but also by the international aid experts that worked in the DPRK in the late 1990s when the DPRK was recovering from a spate of natural disasters.

Prof Hawthorn, and the others who still claim to be socialists on this board, should indeed visit the DPRK to see reality for itself instead of through the eyes of bourgeois propagandists.

pip,pip,

H A R Philby

(Col.ret'd)




I note that Kim has adopted Real Prole's tactic of referring to me as "Prof" when he wants to discredit what I post. The European Society for the Study of Juche - as I have pointed out before - has such a high opinion of professors that it seems that only those with this title are allowed to act as chairpeople. Mind you, the website seems not to have been updated recently. See
http://www.jucheeurope.com/board_of_dir.htm
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Francis King
Francis King

April 30th, 2012, 11:57 am #10

and what you say about the "Good Source" can equally be applied to the "Bad Source" because defectors will say whatever their new host wants them to say (at least until their new citizenship has been irrevocably granted). Defections in the Korean peninsula go both ways and those who go north paint a different picture of south Korean society -- a fact ignored by Messrs Cole, Fauvet and Hawthorn who only seek the truth if it is uttered by the likes of the BBC and the Voice of America. These are the august bodies that told us about the non-existent "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq and the "mass rapes" of Col Gaddafi's soldiers in Libya to drum up support for Nato wars.

Prof Hawthorn raises the question of the DPR Korea's propaganda which he clearly intensely dislikes and disbelieves. What he should remember is that the DPRK's propaganda is 90 per cent focused on south Korea and the overseas Korean community and not the world communist movement or what we used to call world public opinion.

South Korean propaganda is part of the global anti-communist barrage of lies against socialism and anyone opposed to what the Americans used to call the "free world" and more recently the "new world order".

South Korean propaganda is also, of course, primarily aimed at the north with ludicrous stories of the premature and secret deaths of all the Kims -- much like the bourgeois speculation on Brezhnev's imminent death which went on for years during the Cold War -- and bogus "documentary" footage of alleged labour camps prepared largely for the Western audience. I recall one shown a few years ago which purported to show a firing squad in action in some sort of detention camp near the border with China. The accents of all the actors were southern and the firing squad was based on the practice used by the US army rather than the DPRK method of capital punishment which would be carried out -- like China and the former USSR -- by a policeman. But crime is virtually non-existent in north Korea (unlike the south) -- a fact attested not only by the "tourists" Francis derides but also by the international aid experts that worked in the DPRK in the late 1990s when the DPRK was recovering from a spate of natural disasters.

Prof Hawthorn, and the others who still claim to be socialists on this board, should indeed visit the DPRK to see reality for itself instead of through the eyes of bourgeois propagandists.

pip,pip,

H A R Philby

(Col.ret'd)




Kim - you may well choose to believe everything you are told by your chosen side, but please don't assume we all operate like that. Some of us have taken the trouble to develop critical faculties, and weigh up information gleaned from a variety of sources - including official media, émigrés, reports of visitors, journalists etc. etc. We decide, on the bases of plausibility, of how far one bit of information matches another, of experience and so on, how far to give credence to one or another source. We also know how to read between the lines where necessary. The conclusions we reach may well be wrong in whole or in part, but they are emphatically not the result of parroting some line we have been spoonfed.
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