Crime and the causes of crime!!

Crime and the causes of crime!!

Mr Angry
Mr Angry

August 5th, 2009, 8:53 pm #1

It's a shame that the north koreans released the two CIA operatives with the visit of uncle bill to Pyongyang. There is only one way to deal with lawbreakers,counter-revolutionaries and spies in workers states that is with the proletarian bullet!!
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Bill Winters
Bill Winters

August 5th, 2009, 10:37 pm #2

If that is the answer in workers' states then what is the answer in North Korea?
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Sidewell
Sidewell

August 6th, 2009, 12:07 pm #3

It's a shame that the north koreans released the two CIA operatives with the visit of uncle bill to Pyongyang. There is only one way to deal with lawbreakers,counter-revolutionaries and spies in workers states that is with the proletarian bullet!!
A tad too much sherry last night, old bean?

But seriously calling for two reporters, one a young mother, to be shot is absolutely repulsive.

Is does nobody on the left any service.
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Ordinary Proletarian
Ordinary Proletarian

August 6th, 2009, 5:15 pm #4

I think the remark was some kind of irony or sarcrasm or satire or something.Of course under international law the
DPRK would have the right to execute them as they were spies.
The DPRK and leader Kim Jong Il deserve gratitude
for taken the fair minded and humanitarian step of releasing
them but alas the imperialists are not giving the DPRK any
credit.
Unlike the inmates of Guantanamo bay and the victims of rendition Lee and Ling were given a trial.
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Harsanyi_Janos
Harsanyi_Janos

August 6th, 2009, 5:48 pm #5

It wasn't very amusing though; Mister Angry needs to work on his style.
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NM
NM

August 6th, 2009, 8:34 pm #6

I think the remark was some kind of irony or sarcrasm or satire or something.Of course under international law the
DPRK would have the right to execute them as they were spies.
The DPRK and leader Kim Jong Il deserve gratitude
for taken the fair minded and humanitarian step of releasing
them but alas the imperialists are not giving the DPRK any
credit.
Unlike the inmates of Guantanamo bay and the victims of rendition Lee and Ling were given a trial.
I'm no expert on international law, but I've never heard of any such law which even defines what constitutes a "spy", let alone one that gives states the unconditional right to execute them. In some respects, all foreign correspondents, diplomats and anyone else concerned with infomation-gathering abroad can be deemed to be spies. If OP's law actually existed, and its implementation became routine, the world would be a much bloodier, and a much more ignorant place.
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A Critic
A Critic

August 6th, 2009, 8:42 pm #7

I think the remark was some kind of irony or sarcrasm or satire or something.Of course under international law the
DPRK would have the right to execute them as they were spies.
The DPRK and leader Kim Jong Il deserve gratitude
for taken the fair minded and humanitarian step of releasing
them but alas the imperialists are not giving the DPRK any
credit.
Unlike the inmates of Guantanamo bay and the victims of rendition Lee and Ling were given a trial.
When you can talk out of your arse like OP.

Here is what the Electronic Information System for International Law has to say on the matter:

"Espionage may take place both in peacetime and in war although international law is somewhat lacking with regard to espionage in peacetime. With regard to espionage in times of war, espionage is a legitimate operation and does not violate the laws of war."
http://www.eisil.org/index.php?cat=768&t=sub_pages
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A Critic
A Critic

August 6th, 2009, 8:43 pm #8

I think the remark was some kind of irony or sarcrasm or satire or something.Of course under international law the
DPRK would have the right to execute them as they were spies.
The DPRK and leader Kim Jong Il deserve gratitude
for taken the fair minded and humanitarian step of releasing
them but alas the imperialists are not giving the DPRK any
credit.
Unlike the inmates of Guantanamo bay and the victims of rendition Lee and Ling were given a trial.
When you can talk out of your arse like OP.

Here is what the Electronic Information System for International Law has to say on the matter:

"Espionage may take place both in peacetime and in war although international law is somewhat lacking with regard to espionage in peacetime. With regard to espionage in times of war, espionage is a legitimate operation and does not violate the laws of war."
http://www.eisil.org/index.php?cat=768&t=sub_pages
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Kim Philby
Kim Philby

August 6th, 2009, 9:44 pm #9

This discussion is really a pointless exercise. Espionage cannot be covered by "international law" in war-time. Belligerents' national laws always take precedence. The Hague Convention does provide protection to legitimate intelligence gathering (reconnaissance, scouts etc) by uniformed troops. It specifically excludes those masquerading as civilians and it does not protect traitors.

This quote from the Encyclopedia of Espionage, Intelligence and Security (2004) makes it clear that:

"Article 24 of the 1907 Hague Land Warfare Regulations notes that "measures necessary for obtaining information about the enemy and the country are considered permissible"a recognition of the fact that nations will conduct intelligence operations in wartime. Protocol I, Article 46 states that military personnel gathering intelligence while in uniform are to be accorded the treatment due other combatants, but expressly withholds these protections from undercover operatives or agents captured while in the act of conducting espionage. Article 47 similarly exempts mercenariesthose who fail to meet standards of lawful combatants established by Article 44 of 1907 Conferencefrom the rights of POWs. A similar provision exists in Geneva Convention III."


All states use spies and all states reserve the right to apply the death penalty for espionage in times of war (and sometimes even in times of peace).

During the Second World War the Allies and the Axis routinely shot spies. The British Government executed a number of German spies during the war as well as a number of traitors after hostilities ceased. William Joyce is probably the most famous case. None of these acts were regarded as a breaches of "international law" or war-crimes.

During the Cold War the Sovs shot Col.Penkovsky (treason and espionage) and the Americans sent the Rosenbergs to the electric chair for espionage. Some were spared the death penalty because they changed sides or were assets which could be traded like the Soviet agent Col Abel who was swapped for the U2 pilot Gary Powers.

The real issue is whether the death penalty itself is justified, and if so, under what circumstances. The death penalty in peace time has long been abolished throughout the European Union but in Britain, at least, the state still reserves the power to execute spies and traitors in time of war.


H A R Philby
(Col.ret'd)
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Pavel Korchargin
Pavel Korchargin

August 7th, 2009, 6:23 pm #10

It's a shame that the north koreans released the two CIA operatives with the visit of uncle bill to Pyongyang. There is only one way to deal with lawbreakers,counter-revolutionaries and spies in workers states that is with the proletarian bullet!!
The pardoning of the two US journalists by Chairman KIM JONG IL shows clearly that it is socialism that treats prisoners humanely. Despite what some contributers believe from such "respected" organs as "The Daily Mail", "The Sun" and "The Guardian" the DPRK justice and penal system is based upon the re-education and reformation of the offender, unlike the British prison service where prisoners are cooked up for about 22 hours a day in dirty and overcrowd conditions. If the two young women had been committing similiar offences (ie illegally enter national territory and perform espionage activties) in places like Turkey, Colombia or Israel they would be either jailed for decades or even executed while suffering sexual torture during interrogation. So they could considered themsleves lucky to be in detention in the DPRK where they were treated with the upmost care and respect and released without harm back to the USA
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