Minimizing the Weight Gained

Physical healing of the body and mind
Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:59

05 Jun 2002, 10:04 #21


I'm still a newbie here, but there's a couple of things that I know regardless of where you are in your quit as far as weight gain...
Exercise -- even if it's light exercise!
and drink lots of water!

Even if you're not used to exercising, start off with walks around your block and increase the time or distance every day. It not only helps maintain your weight (and eventually lose some!), but it also curbs cravings and makes you a happier person (its just sometimes hard to realize that part until you're finished)! Not to mention... it feels good to get more oxygen in your new, healing lungs!

As for water, there's nothing wrong with drinking water! It can actually reduce water retention. So, cut down on sugary drinks and get your 8, 8oz glasses a day - or more!

I have chosen not to smoke for 5 Days and 23 Hours !!! Cigarettes not smoked: 89. Money saved: $11.17. I have rescued 14 Hrs and 53 Mins of my life!


Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 00:00

17 Jun 2002, 15:02 #22

I'm so relieved about the water retention/bloating explanation. Is there a physiological answer to this phenomenon? anyone?

Your quit sis


I have chosen not to smoke for 3 Weeks 6 Days 5 Hours 55 Minutes 29 Seconds. Cigarettes not smoked: 817. Money saved: A$249.31.

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

17 Jun 2002, 18:57 #23

Hello Sue:

Nicotine causes the release of antidiuretic hormone which on the surface would make you think that quitting smoking would cause you to lose water immediately upon cessation. But it seems that this is one effect that is a rebound effect of quitting, a reaction that nicotine used to do upon administration actually gets intensified when its administration is ceased. One other example of this are people who get tingling effects in their fingers and toes after first quitting. The cause often is that the arteries to these areas go into constriction for a few days after quitting. Nicotine itself is a vasoconstrictor so you would think that stopping smoking would cause arteries to open right up but as in the case of the diuretic effect here, the opposite reaction occurs. This vasoconstriction effect usually adjusts by the fourth day, but the water retention effect often lasts into the second week before things go back to normal.
Hope this helps clarifies things. Even if a person never understands the mechanisms for such reactions, his or her body gets back to normal and will stay that way as long as he or she always remembers to never take another puff!


Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 01:30

31 Aug 2002, 12:14 #24

Glad to hear the the mushy sludge around my waist that seemingly grew overnight could be temporary water retention. VERY glad to hear it, as my eating habits are far healthier now (following real hunger cues--what a treat to feel really hungry--with nutritious foods) since I quit, and I am very active physically. I am so grateful to be nicotine free and making healthier choices...even if I gain 5-10 pounds, I'll know I'm nourishing my body rather than robbing it from nutrients by smoking.

Feelin' Groovy....

Joined: 07 Jan 2009, 19:09

05 Oct 2002, 21:50 #25

Just offering a little ray of hope for those who think they can't quit without gaining. Immediately after quitting, I did indulge in comfort foods and I did 'treat myself' quite a bit for the first three weeks. But I set a definite cut-off point, and so by the time I turned green, I was no longer giving in to the food cravings. I also started exercising in order to rehabilitate my lungs. Now, I am 5 pounds below my pre-quitting weight. I never gained any weight, and the exercise has helped me to slim down a bit. So, as you see, you can structure your quit so that you still 'baby' yourself a little with regard to the food. If you are smart enought to quit using nicotene, you can certainly learn to avoid falling into the trap of eating unhealthy foods as well.

I have been nicotene FREE for: 4M 4W 9h 49m 47s. I have NOT smoked 3760, for a savings of $658.04. Life Saved: 1W 6D 1h 20m. And I have NOT gained a single ounce of weight!

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

09 Jan 2003, 06:21 #26

A crutch is anything that you lean heavily upon in order to support or motivate your effort to break nicotine's grip upon your life, including food! If your effort is dependent upon any crutch, what will happen if the crutch is for some reason removed or in the case of food, not removed? Why allow your health and very possibly our life to depend upon any person, place or thing other than you!
Yes, eating lots of extra food that must lead to substantial weight gain, major lifestyle changes that would eventually tire anyone, a quit smoking exercise program that can be interrupted by weather or injury, an uneducated quitting buddy who statistically has an 88 to 90% chance of relapsing within 24 weeks, the support of family and friends who are not drug addicts themselves and can not in fairness be expected to appreciate the magnitude or duration of chemical nicotine withdrawal or psychological recovery, or even leaning too heavily upon any support group to keep your motivation strong, can all serve as risky quit crutches.
This is your quit and the list of reasons on your reasons list all belong to you! The next few minutes are doable and you'll be the only one doing them! If you have only quit for one hour be proud of your accomplishment as no one hour during this temporary journey of adjustment called "quitting" is any more important than another. Baby steps, just one hour, challenge and day at a time! This is doable if we simply NEVER TAKE ANOTHER PUFF! John
Last edited by John (Gold) on 29 Mar 2009, 15:46, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

17 Mar 2003, 23:47 #27

I saw where one member wrote to another member that he or she should do what ever it takes to quit smoking. The example specifically given was drink water or eat ice cream. I have to say, if someone plans on going the ice cream route they had better be ready to go buy a whole slew of complete wardrobes, of ever increasing sizes. If your crutch for smoking thoughts are going to be any high caloric food weight gain of massive amounts should be expected.

As far as using whatever it takes, I guess that can be translated to taking any food, any drug, legal or illegal to quit smoking or any activity, no matter how ludicrous or dangerous that activity may be. Does the comment smoke crack cocaine, or shoot up heroin, or drink lethal dosages of arsenic make any sense to anyone as practical advice to quit smoking? If not, the comment of do whatever it takes loses any real concept of credibility.

The comment needs to be do what it takes to quit smoking. What it takes is simply sticking to your commitment to never take another puff!


Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

09 Nov 2003, 17:44 #28

Last edited by John (Gold) on 29 Mar 2009, 16:01, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

26 Jul 2005, 01:01 #29

From the string "Do whatever it takes to quit smoking"
From: Joel Sent: 12/28/2004 8:50 PM
I saw a suggestion up earlier about things that a person can do rather than smoking--eating sunflower seeds being one of the suggestions. The same comment in the original post in this string about eating ice-cream can easily be said about turning to any high caloric food as a substitution for smoking. The advice we give at Freedom is not "do whatever it takes to quit smoking," but rather, "do what it takes to quit smoking." What it takes to quit smoking is simply sticking to your commitment to never take another puff!
Freedom is different than most other sites. We want our new members to be spending a lot more time reading than posting. It takes a lot more time and effort to meet people and write stories that it does to read. While meeting others and sharing your own stories might seem more fun it is not likely going to be giving you new insights to effectively deal with quitting. If you have questions or concerns let us know but spend the bulk of your time enhancing your learning about your addiction and how to treat it.
See also Crutches to Quit Smoking

It does not take a whole lot of sunflower seeds to equal 100 calories. Pick up this pattern while quitting smoking and carry it on over an extended time period and you can needlessly gain lots and lots of extra fat and weight. It may shock some people to find out that all that a person needs to swallow in order to sustain a quit is to swallow the advice to never take another puff.

Last edited by Joel on 29 Mar 2009, 16:22, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 16 Jan 2003, 08:00

06 Apr 2006, 06:21 #30

From Blood Sugar Changes When Quitting:
A New Experience for Many
If you are just arriving then this thread is VERY important and worth reading again and again. Each new puff of new nicotine fed us by releasing adrenaline, which in turn released stored fats and sugars into our bloodstream. I, for one, lived in a very unnatural feeding world where I almost always skipped breakfast and lunch and yet never knew true hunger. How could that be? Nicotine was my spoon!

It's not only important to understand this issue to help avoid unnecessary blood sugar swing symptoms during early withdrawal, but also in helping understand and appreciate how to deal with "real" hunger. It's important to appreciate the time delay between the arrival of hunger, eating food, and our digestive system having time to convert the food to usable energy that arrives in the brain to turn-off the brain's hunger switch. It takes about 20 minutes.

As Joel points out, if, because of nicotine constantly feeding us, we are not used to the natural period of hunger and attempt to satisfy it with a shovel instead of a slow spoon, we can devour an awful lot of groceries in those 20 minutes. None of us need to eat one calorie more than we did while smoking nicotine but we may need to learn to properly deal with hunger and we may need to learn to spread our normal calorie intake out more evenly over our entire day. It's really a learning experience in simply feeding ourselves again - just like a never-smoker!

If the food craves should arrive, the slower we eat and the greater amount of time passing between food helpings, the fewer helpings we may find ourselves consuming. After all these years of nicotine feeding us it can take a bit of practice learning how to feed ourselves properly again. What a wonderful problem to have!

Breathe deep, hug hard, live long!

John : )
Last edited by Sal GOLD.ffn on 29 Mar 2009, 16:36, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

06 Apr 2006, 18:33 #31

As someone who has dealt with minor weight issues my whole adult life, I wanted to add something here that I think is really important.

One of the things we're often trained to do from a very young age is "reward" ourselves with food for doing something good. (Eat your dinner and you'll get desert, clean your room and I'll give you some candy, I just got that promotion - big steak dinner on me!).

I can't think of a better reason to celebrate than quitting smoking. Just be cautious (if you're worried about weight gain) that you're not rewarding yourself too often with high fat/calorie food! I made that mistake and now I'm walking to tim-buk-too on the treadmill


Joined: 16 Jan 2003, 08:00

02 Jun 2006, 19:34 #32

Last edited by Sal GOLD.ffn on 29 Mar 2009, 17:03, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

03 Aug 2006, 09:02 #33

Knowledge is Power
Smoking cessation weight gain and weight control are important issues but we must keep our priorities straight. You face a 50% chance that your chemical dependency upon smoking nicotine will cost you roughly 5,000 days of life, and even greater odds that it will leave you permanently crippled and impaired. When quitting smoking, we would need to gain an additional 75 to 100 pounds in order to equal the health risk associated with smoking one pack of cigarettes a day.

Allow yourself the time necessary to become comfortable in your still healing body before becoming overly occupied with any extra pounds. The self discipline skills you master during nicotine dependency recovery can be applied to all life's challenges, including stop smoking weight gain (baby steps - just one meal, one ounce, one pound, or one brief exercise period at a time - just one day at a time).

As Dr. Nora Volkow, the Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) explains in the "Pay Attention" article linked below, both food and nicotine shared the same dopamine pathways. Nicotine also released adrenaline. Once nicotine intake ends many try to eat their temporarily diminished dopamine flow into nicotine comparable quantities, while others pick horrible fights or create outragous fears in an attempt to induce the body's fight or flight pathways to release additional adrenaline. The competition between a week or two of brain neuron re-sensitization and trying to keep weight and relationships in balance is clearly a challenge but one you're fully capable of handling.

In regard to nicotine invoking the body's fight or flight pathways, one of those lizard mind pathways is responsible for providing instant energy to fight or flea the saber tooth tiger, by releasing stored fats and sugars into the bloodstream. Yes, nicotine was our spoon, allowing us to skip meals yet not experience true hunger, as our bigger meals were fed back to us with each puff throughout the day.

This creates two nicotine cessation challenges: (1) learning to again feed ourselves, to spread our normal daily calorie intake out more evenly over our entire day so as not to experience wild blood sugar swing symptoms (not one calorie more but smaller fuelings about every 3 hours), and (2) learning to handle true hunger pains again. In regard to hunger pains, once one arrives it doesn't matter if we eat with a toothpick or a shovel, it is still going to take our digestive system about 20 minutes to convert the food to energy that is capable of turning off the mind's hunger switch. Eat slowly, reasonable size bites and eat healthy!

How many nicotine smokers do you know who love running? They're pretty rare. But online we see countless ex-smokers develop a passion for engaging in various forms of brisk and lengthy physical activity. Imagine experiencing a substantial increase in overall lung function within just 90 days. Any extra pounds can quickly disappear when such new found endurance and stamina are combined with a small to moderate increase in physical activities. If you do find yourself carrying a few extra pounds, be patient with your healing! New abilities are on the way!

Still just one guiding principle determining the outcome for all, no nicotine just one day at a time, Never Take Another Puff!
Breathe deep, hug hard, live long!

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

19 Aug 2006, 01:44 #34

Eating just an additional 100 calories a day will result in a one pound fat gain in just over a month, 10.4 pounds in one year, and an extra 104 pounds in ten years. 104 pounds of fat from drinking the equivalent of one extra soft drink per day. This is why you often hear, "I didn't eat that much more but gained excessive amounts of weight!" True, they may not have eaten that much more daily, but they did it everyday, and the cumulative effect can easily account for the "mysterious" weight gain.

Joined: 16 Jan 2003, 08:00

02 Oct 2006, 06:45 #35

Last edited by Sal GOLD.ffn on 29 Mar 2009, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 00:01

02 Nov 2006, 23:54 #36

this crutch piece says alot within a very few words.

Joined: 18 Dec 2008, 23:57

15 Nov 2006, 00:55 #37

New weight control video. General warning--its long.
Title dial-up highspeed Length Added
Weight control concerns after quitting smoking 9.13mb 21.9mb 43:56 11/14/06

Joined: 16 Jan 2003, 08:00

29 Jan 2008, 09:45 #38

Last edited by Sal GOLD.ffn on 29 Mar 2009, 17:49, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 00:24

28 Mar 2008, 18:03 #39

Hi to All,

Just a quick post with my personal experience on the Weight Gain topic. I am 5 months+ into my quit, and a major change in my life that continues to manifest itself is this very strong urge to exercise. When I still smoked, I did very little physical exercise. I currently play squash twice a week, and go to the gym every time I am on the road for my job. Coupled with a sensible approach to food intake has ensured that I am exactly the same weight now as I was 5 months ago.

Judging by comments from family and friends, I look great, and much, much healthier than I did when I was still a nicojunkie.



Joined: 19 Dec 2008, 00:05

26 Jun 2008, 16:13 #40

I found the perfect recipe for keeping the weight off...

It is no secret that many of us who smoked heavily also drank our fair share of alcohol. That certainly was the case for me, although I was largely in denial about the slippery slope I was headed down - maye I wasn't an alcoholic - yet.... But I was sure headed that way.

Anywho, if quitting smoking makes you gain weight, and quitting drinking helps you lose weight, then it turns out to be a terrific combination for breaking even! And feeling incredible.

Good luck to all and NTAP!

Joined: 16 Jan 2003, 08:00

24 Nov 2008, 21:30 #41

Last edited by Sal GOLD.ffn on 29 Mar 2009, 18:01, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 06 Dec 2008, 16:58

29 Mar 2009, 18:06 #42


Joined: 31 Jan 2009, 02:15

31 Mar 2009, 23:55 #43

I have so far not had a weight gain in my quit--I've actually lost a few pounds (on purpose). However, I went into this like most all of us do: that is, with nearly everyone on earth telling me "You WILL gain weight." Like it was just a guarantee or something. That's not a comforting thing to hear, but I kept reminding myself why I wanted to quit in the first place, and the truth remains: Whatever weight I gain, it's not as heavy as carrying around an oxygen tank. (an olbie told me that--so true!)

So, that said, I decided I would try to minimize weight gain during my quit. I did a few little things to help myself. I'm not suggesting any of these will work for you--I hope they do, but each of us is different, so take this for what it is: my personal experience. Here are the things that helped me:

Based on what I learned here, I drank fruit juice (cranberry) like wild for the first three days of my quit to help manage the blood sugar issue, and then after the first three days, I stopped drinking it. Blood sugar was normal by then, and I didn't need all those calories.

I reminded myself that I was quitting for my health and that eating like there's no tomorrow wasn't going to help my health any!

I learned through reading here how to recognize that vauge feeling of "wanting something" and distingush that feeling from actual hunger and craves for nicotine. When I realized that I was not hungry and that I just either wanted nicotine or "something," I tried several different things to try to satisfy the feeling and manage it with my brain rather than with, say, cake.

I found that for me, a lot of what was going on with me physically after I was nicotine free involved clenching my teeth. I'm a big clencher! I think I also grind, but the point is that I found myself wanting to get out my aggression and stress that way, and that the act of smoking somehow used to be a part of all that. When I put down the cigarettes, I still wanted to do something with my mouth--chewing seemed good!--so for a small period of time, I chewed sugar-free candies or gum, and I ate a lot of carrots. So as not to adopt a "crutch," I paid attention while doing this (actually told myself while chewing "I am chewing becuase I'm craving--it will pass and I won't need to chew anymore" and "I am chewing to chew, not becuase I am hungry.") and I worked hard to use my brain to manage this feeling. Two months in, I'm not doing the candy and carrots anymore--I'm managing fine without either, and I'm feeling really proud about that!

I started exercising more--nothing wild and out of control--just 30 minutes of walking (hard enough to sweat) three or so times a week. That's fun not only because it's good for the weight issue, but it also gives me a chance to experience the improvement in my breathing. I love that!

I already knew how to eat right, and I just kept doing it. This is a big one because if you're not eating right, you're going to put on weight whether you quit smoking or not. If you don't know how to eat right, there are lots of ways to find out.

All of that helps me manage the weight and, so far, has helped me lose some.

Through it all, though, I put my quit first. I'd serioulsy rather gain 10 pounds than a tumor of any size or shape. I'd rather hear my doctor say, " could stand to drop a few pounds" than hear her say, "Amanda, you have cancer." But I have found that for me, it is not an either/or situation. I wanted to have both, I am willing to work to have both, and I have both-- a good quit and a weight loss. Both of those things support my overall goal of being a happier, healthier, more positive person!

I wish you all the very best with your quits!


I have been free for 2 Months, 3 Days, 22 hours and 24 minutes (62 days). I have saved $167.54 bmoking 943 cigarettes. I have saved 1 Week, 4 hours and 53 minutes of my life. My Quit Date: 1/27/2009 9:30 PM


Joined: 11 Nov 2008, 19:22

09 Sep 2009, 16:24 #44

Study finds quit smoking
weight gain temporary

by John R. Polito
Compared to smokers who continued smoking, a new study found that among smokers who quit smoking that women weighed an average of 2.6 kg more and men 5.1 kg more. But the good news is that nearly all of that weight gain was temporary. Among ex-smokers who had quit at least five years, their weight and body mass index was nearly the same as the weight of someone who had never smoked.

"Our finding that former daily smokers [who were five or more years since quitting] demonstrated equivalent BMI increases to never smokers is in line with evidence suggesting that the average body weight of quitters tends to stabilize over time to levels of never smokers," writes the authors of an August 2009 study in the Scandinavian Journal of Public Health.

The good news is that any immediate spike in weight gain upon quitting appears to be relatively short-lived," says the study's lead author, Deborah L. Reas, Ph.D, of the University of Oslo's Institute of Psychiatry.

How to Minimize Quitting Weight Gain

"There are several tried and true things you can do immediately to prevent or minimize any potential weight gain," says Dr. Reas, who works in the eating disorder clinic at Oslo's University Hospital. "It is important to view all changes as lifestyle changes for long-term weight management, not temporary fixes to be quickly abandoned."

"Eat breakfast, walk everywhere you can and take the stairs, and build some form of exercise into your daily routine," advises Dr. Reas.

"Trash the low-nutrient, energy dense, highly processed foods and beverages in your cupboard. Have healthy snacks such as fruits and vegetables washed, cut, and in see-through, ready-to-go containers or sitting on the counter ready to grab."

"Timing is everything," says Dr. Reas. "Spacing meals too far apart puts you at risk for overeating and making poor choices, as well as signaling your body to conserve energy. Ideally, meals should be eaten about 4-5 hours apart, and it's important to consume a healthy snack in between meals."

Weight Control Consensus Developing

While many smokers fear smoking cessation weight gain, as Dr. Reas's research suggests, such fears are totally out of perspective. "Quit," says Dr. Reas, "The risks of continuing to smoke to both you and your loved ones far exceed any minor weight gain you might experience."

According to the U.S. Surgeon General, roughly half of adult smokers are losing an average of 14 years of life if female and 13 years if male.

"The health implication of a minor weight gain is negligible in comparison to the health risks posed by smoking," writes Joel Spitzer, author of the free PDF quit smoking book Never Take Another Puff . "The average smoker would have to gain 75 to 100 pounds to put the additional workload on the heart that is experienced by smoking, and this is not saying anything about the smoking cancer risk."

It isn't unusual to see up to 5 pounds of water retention weight gain during the first week of quitting, pounds that can be shed as quickly as they arrived.

Dr. Reas nails how to avoid having to deal with over-eating in asserting that the timing of calorie intake is everything. One of the most challenging aspects of recovery is re-learning to properly fuel the body. Nicotine activates the body's fight or flight response, instantly pumping stored energy into our bloodstream. Never-smokers who get hungry can't instantly satisfy the onset of hunger. They have to eat food and then wait for digestion to turn off the body's hunger switch.

Once we become ex-users, whether we eat with a toothpick or shovel we will need to wait for digestion to satisfy hunger. By re-learning how to properly feed ourselves again we diminish the risk of adding food craves to nicotine craves, of witnessing our body's hoarding instincts kick into high gear.

As Dr. Reas advises, don't skip meals, and learn to eat little, healthy and often. If we insist on skipping meals we should fully expect to confront hunger. If in the throws of hunger, eat healthy and slowly, savoring each bite for as long as possible, so as to allow time for digestion to satisfy it.

As Spitzer notes, a cigarette may have been our cue that a meal had ended. You may benefit by adopting a new healthy cue such as tooth brushing, a toothpick, clearing the table, doing the dishes or stepping outside for fresh air.

One of the most valuable lessons taught by Joel Spitzer is that minor daily adjustments in the number of calories consumed or burned can result in significant weight change over time. As Joel puts it, "eating just an additional 100 calories a day will result in a one-pound fat gain in just over a month, 10.4 pounds in one year, and an extra 104 pounds in ten years." The same formula works in regard to weight reduction and the loss seen when burning an extra hundred calories a day or consuming one hundred fewer.

Unfortunately, most of us fell into rather unhealthy eating and exercise patterns once addicted to smoking nicotine. Free for more than a decade, I can still picture myself smoking during walks or bike rides. Why wasn't I jogging or running? Truth is, I couldn't.

One-half of the carbon monoxide inhaled with that last puff is still circulating in the bloodstream four hours later. Carbon monoxide hijacks our blood's ability to transport oxygen. It isn't that we didn't want to participate in prolonged vigorous physical activity but that we couldn't.

One of the most exciting aspects of recovery is when we're at last brave enough to venture beyond our former prison cell and attempt activities we previously avoided. It isn't unusual to discover that we can go longer with less fatigue than we've known in years. It can feel like turning back the clock. As Dr. Reas suggests, make your favorite activity a part of each day.

Why wait? The next few minutes are all that matter and each is entirely do-able. Your mind and body can become 100% nicotine-free within 72 hours, with peak withdrawal behind you. We hope you'll explore WhyQuit as we've assembled the Internet's largest array of free recovery tools.

Embrace coming home, don't fear, dread or fight it. There was always only one rule determining the outcome for all ... no nicotine just one hour, challenge and day at a time! Yes you can!

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  • "After I Lose Weight I will Quit Smoking!" by Joel
Last edited by JohnPolito on 09 Sep 2009, 16:26, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 13:37

11 Sep 2010, 11:42 #45

I had dieted and lost 56 pounds before I quit over eight years ago, so I had a "head start" on any potential weight gain from smoking.  Over the years since, my weight had gradually crept back up and I found myself a bit overweight again last year.

I had tried to lose weight a few times, but never with any lasting success and I began to wonder if I really could lose weight since I'd quit smoking.  (Didn't make me want to start back, as I know better than that.  (Education is a wonderful thing, isn't it?))  But, I digress.

Anyway, right after Thanksgiving last year I decided to buckle down.  No crash diets, just healthy eating in moderation.  The pounds began to come off, and I've lost 29 pounds and am back to a healthy 170, right where I should be. 

I tell you this to illustrate a point, if I can ever get around to it.  I tried to tell myself that I couldn't lose weight because I had quit smoking.  That wasn't true, just like all the other lies I told myself over the years.  The only thing you have to give up by quitting smoking is your dependence on nicotine. Don't let yourself be fooled by the little lies we tell ourselves to justify things we really don't want to take the time and discipline to change.