"The club face would seem to open...

"The club face would seem to open...

Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

June 11th, 2005, 5:20 pm #1

...but in effect it is square to the direction it is travelling." This sentence was in an old letter to me from Mindy. For a long time I thought, "No, surely it is seeming to close--NOT seeming to open, no way." Well, this reminded me yet again, one should pay attention to everything Blake said about how to execute his swing. I noticed recently that my grip was too weak. Strengthening it solved some problems for me, but my habit of pulling returned. Paying attention to what Mindy said, I tried thinking only of moving the lead hand thumb to top of club, reaching that position just as I get to top of backswing. When I do that it does feel as if the clubface is opening, but yields a correct flat lead wrist position at top of backswing. That's it, nothing more. No change in what the trail hand/wrist do. There was an immediate reduction in pulls and any pulls were closer to being straight. Anyone having trouble with pulls, please try this and tell us whether it is of any utility for you. SD
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 4th, 2005, 3:48 pm

June 11th, 2005, 6:33 pm #2

It seems open because of the clockwise movement of the right hand.
Assuming that you are using the completion grip.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

June 11th, 2005, 11:41 pm #3

Using Blake's grip, it has always seemed to me that the trail (right) hand was 'trying' to open, though the lead (left) hand was turning under (counter clockwise) or closing. This closing feeling has always seemed to be the 'dominant' feeling in the backswing. What I was describing in my post was a change in the feeling of the lead hand. When I think of taking the lead hand thumb directly to a position on top of the club (the 'feeling' Mindy said he had at top of backswing), instead of turning under, lead hand felt more like it was opening. Lot's of 'feelings', eh? And, yet, as you know, that's the way Mindy wrote. He told you how things should 'feel'--I think it's a good idea. It could be that Mindy was describing the feeling of the trail hand in his letter. Do you use Blake's grip change? SD
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 4th, 2005, 3:48 pm

June 12th, 2005, 6:42 am #4

I have decided to get back to basics. I am now working on the grip change because i see it as an essential part of the reflex swing.
I doubt if the connection can be made without the grip completion.
Working on chipping and will move to pitching and finally to the full
shot as i progress. The grip has been my stumbling block right from the beginning.
Another factor that contributes to the "seem" is when we cock our wrists during the first stage of the back swing, the club face seems to open, in reality it stays square. The information on this forum has been a great motivation for me not to give up.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: October 25th, 2004, 12:28 pm

June 12th, 2005, 2:41 pm #5

During the back swing "MINDY" said, that the club face appears to be CLOSING. Also, known as HOODING the club face. This statement makes me believe that the club face doesn't open at all.

If you turn your lead hand under your trail hand the club face has to feel that it is closing...

My thoughts?
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

June 12th, 2005, 3:59 pm #6

I am completely confused. The whole pretext of the Blake swing is to keep the face square to the arc. That precludes any "opening" action I would think????
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 4th, 2005, 3:48 pm

June 12th, 2005, 4:54 pm #7

The point is that it seems open. A misconception.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

June 13th, 2005, 4:08 am #8

I have decided to get back to basics. I am now working on the grip change because i see it as an essential part of the reflex swing.
I doubt if the connection can be made without the grip completion.
Working on chipping and will move to pitching and finally to the full
shot as i progress. The grip has been my stumbling block right from the beginning.
Another factor that contributes to the "seem" is when we cock our wrists during the first stage of the back swing, the club face seems to open, in reality it stays square. The information on this forum has been a great motivation for me not to give up.
Duke,
Glad to hear that the forum is useful. Your idea of starting with chipping, then to pitching is, IMO, the best way to begin again.

In the midst of writing a post re the rationale for the grip completion and its execution, my attention was drawn to Figure 9 and 10 of GtTB. Look closely at the lead hand/wrist. The wrist is hanging absolutely flat. I began trying to assume an address that would allow the lead wrist to be that flat (no cupping). I muttered to myself, "Mindy must have had short arms."

The only way I can do it is with a substantially open stance, well bent over posture, and slightly bent knees. The openness and bent over posture are more extreme than I thought I could be comfortable with. It seems easiest when I start from almost facing the target, then 'twist the rubber brick' to get the shoulders near square.

Well, setting up this way, and making sure the lead wrist is flat, seemed to virtually assure a good connection between lower and upper body and, thus, a solid shot. The straight-back path of the backswing seemed obvious from this position. I was getting good connection shot after shot--only poor concentration seemed to mess things up. Do you start your swing with your lead wrist flat? If not, try it and see if it makes a difference. SD
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

June 14th, 2005, 5:14 pm #9

The point is that it seems open. A misconception.
The clubface opens relative to the ground but not to the arc.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

June 14th, 2005, 10:57 pm #10

Blake from Takeaway section, GtTB: "In fact, this means that the left [lead] hand pushes the club straight back with the clubface remaining at right angles to the line of flight." The line of flight, of course, is not synonomous with the backswing arc since the club must come inside the target line, though Blake did try to minimize the degree to which it came inside (14 degrees).

He added some other words re his rationale: "This is normally referred to as 'hooding the club', but it is actually a truly square method which eliminates the complications that arise when you are trying, as in the conventional golf swing, to strike a ball with an implement which is rotating in two planes--around the body and around the arms--simultaneously." SD
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 4th, 2005, 3:48 pm

June 17th, 2005, 6:51 pm #11

Duke,
Glad to hear that the forum is useful. Your idea of starting with chipping, then to pitching is, IMO, the best way to begin again.

In the midst of writing a post re the rationale for the grip completion and its execution, my attention was drawn to Figure 9 and 10 of GtTB. Look closely at the lead hand/wrist. The wrist is hanging absolutely flat. I began trying to assume an address that would allow the lead wrist to be that flat (no cupping). I muttered to myself, "Mindy must have had short arms."

The only way I can do it is with a substantially open stance, well bent over posture, and slightly bent knees. The openness and bent over posture are more extreme than I thought I could be comfortable with. It seems easiest when I start from almost facing the target, then 'twist the rubber brick' to get the shoulders near square.

Well, setting up this way, and making sure the lead wrist is flat, seemed to virtually assure a good connection between lower and upper body and, thus, a solid shot. The straight-back path of the backswing seemed obvious from this position. I was getting good connection shot after shot--only poor concentration seemed to mess things up. Do you start your swing with your lead wrist flat? If not, try it and see if it makes a difference. SD
This is an interesting point. Mindy talks about this in his detailed outline in gttb. I cannot see this flat wrist happening at address, the remark is made in "the takeaway" section, and it is my contention that the left hand is rounded after the first movement and not at address. If we look at fig 22 & 23 and fig 25 in tgsotf the back of the leading hand is cupped and not bowed. Feedback on this point will be welcome.

I was planning to go out and chip the other day, however the rain forced me indoors with my putter. After reading the sections on putting it became clear to me that Mindy regards the put as a miniture of the full shot with the movements minimised. I have been practice putting with the legs with some very good results. After i take the putter back with my hands, i pause and then by moving both knees in the direction of the pin i drag the putter through the ball. How many Midians out there put with their legs ?

I finaly started practising my chipping however it has been frustrating because of to many shanks. I am finally beginning to feel comfortable
with the grip completion, i must have had a mental block here.

I live on a golf estate with a nine hole "long par three course" and
practice by playing, practice is not allowed on the course.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

June 20th, 2005, 6:04 am #12

Re lead wrist position at address. I think you must look at Figs 9 and 10 in GtTB. The lead wrist position shown there is definitely flat. Also note you can see the back of the hand from downrange (Fig 10). As you take the club back, the lead hand "...pushes the club under the right hand," and back of lead hand will face outward--away from the body. Place Fig 9 and Fig 25 of GSotF side by side. As you noted, the lead wrist in Fig 25 is cupped. Lead arm in Fig 9 is a little more forward (closer to target) than in Fig 25. IMO, the open stance allowed Blake to let his lead arm hang purely vertical with wrist flat and trail elbow even more forward.

Re shanking. There's a disheartening shot that occasionally plagues me--I call it my 'fatal flaw'--you know, as in a tragedy . It looks like (squirts off to the right virtually powerless) and even feels like a shank, but it's not, at least to my understanding of a shank. Upon inspecting the clubface, the grass marks are on the clubface, not on the hosel. Are you sure the shanks you're hitting are really shanks? For me it sometimes becomes pervasive and I can't hit a decent shot. What is the cause? One analyst recently told me (without benefit of video or photos) that it's likely my hands are not ahead of clubhead at impact. Could be. Whatever it is, it's a small but critical error in swing execution, ie, a string of good swings will be suddenly interrupted by a really poor shot. Many times I've thought I had it pinned down, but I've never been absolutely sure. Usually it disappears as quickly as it appeared. One likely culprit that video has revealed: trail elbow going too far back in the backswing. This means trail elbow won't be in a good position for dragging from the top and won't be in advance of trail hip at impact. Other (apparent) errors: stance too narrow, backswing too fast, trail wrist not bending back as takeaway starts, lead arm coming inside too much in backswing. My fix for trail elbow error: press elbows together and think only of keeping them close to top of backswing.

Putting with the Legs: Richard Wax definitely putts with his legs, ie, to my eye he really does seem to be dragging the putter rather than stroking it with his arms. When I saw him putt he had a really good feel for distance on longer putts. SD
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: June 4th, 2005, 3:48 pm

June 25th, 2005, 8:22 am #13

It seems like i am making contact with the heel. This happens often now that i am trying the grip completion, could it be that i release the club and the clubface opens ? The shot is without power and the ball scoots to the right. I am determined to keep at it because i believe that the grip completion is essential to the reflex swing. I have been experimenting with all kinds of grips for many years. Waiting for the dvd, hope it will help me.Thanks for the interest Snakedoc.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

June 26th, 2005, 2:57 am #14

When dealing with my 'shanks', or shots that squirt off to the right, I find the following to be helpful. First, I check to be sure whether I'm striking the ball with the club hosel/heel. IMO, the reason a true shank is considered so embarrassing is that it would seem to be a beginner-type shot--a gross error. I notice in the two DVDs featuring Richard Wax that he addresses the ball just inside the 'sweet spot' of iron clubs. He may be accounting for centrifugal force, assuring that club will strike the ball on the face. My so-called 'shanks' are not shots striking the hosel/heel.

In his first book Mindy recommended addressing the ball inside (closer to his body) to account for the 'pull' of centrifugal force. I intentionally backswing slowly and try to feel the weight of the clubhead, both on way back and way down. Blake might have called it dragging the club back and dragging it down. A stance alteration allowed Mindy to place the club directly behind the ball.

In his 'Essentials of the Golf Swing', John Redman comes closest to the idea of dragging the club back and dragging it down. He thought hip turn should drag the club back to top of backswing and hip 'un-turn' should drag the club down and through. The main difference between Redman and Blake is that Redman thought there should be 'wrist release' in the impact zone of downswing. (Note: Blake and Redman differed in their thoughts on energy source--Blake thought it to be the legs, Redman the hips.) In my version of this I swing back very slowly, feeling centrifugal force even on the way back, then 'hesitate'for the legs to do their thing. When executed properly, the club is dragged, or 'pulled', if you will--down. My 'mastery' of the reflex swing, to the extent it exists, is in executing a 1/2 to 3/4 pitch shot with, let's say, a nine iron, with which I have no feeling of the 'hit impulse'. The shot is straight, no draw or fade, and distance is quite predictable.

My stance is not as open as Mindy's. A stance closer to square as in Blake's GSotF address feel most comfortable to me. I'm now trying to set up with a more open stance. If I can do this and overcome any residual 'hit impulse' for full swings, I will be a happy man (in my golfing life) In the past couple weeks I have tried reducing the amount of spine angle (bending over from the waist) and, instead, bending the knees a bit more. I'm quite pleased with the result. What is the climate like down there this time of year? Regards, SD
Quote
Like
Share


Confirmation of reply: