leg power part II

leg power part II

Joined: November 20th, 2005, 12:14 am

January 6th, 2006, 2:31 pm #1

Hi all
I have read thru the entire archive. There is some great stuff there. One very appealing article was started by "cd" called "leg power" and dated November 28 2004. I would suggest reading it with this thread.
The photos I alluded to in the previous thread are at
http://www.michaelmtalianchich.com/golfrichard1.htm
The reflex swing is based upon leg power as the sole source of power. I find this difficult to achieve.
If I pause at the top of the backswing and then initiate the downswing with my knees (rotational) or legs sliding (linear) or hips sliding, the hands and arms only move down so much. The legs etc do not bring my arms/hands/clubhead back to the ball automatically or in reflex. I have to consciouslly allow my arms/hands/clubhead to come back to the ball. So in my opinion, is not the reflex swing a combination of legs and arms. In other words, just using my legs does not bring my clubhead back to the ball. What am I missing?? Has anyone tried what "cd" advocated.
Richard mentions that he gets his leg power to work by just turning to talk to someone at the dinner table. I tried this and I must admit that I have to use my shoulders to do the turning as my legs don't do diddly squat for me. I would end up talking to the wine bottle. Any further enlightment on this subject would be appreciated

Mr confused
mike t
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

January 6th, 2006, 5:33 pm #2

Thanks for the great photos and the thoughtful analysis. I have to say
that I can't see the 'straightening' in Richard's lead leg that you
mentioned.

I am still having trouble propelling my upper body via legs
and must actively engage my torso in the swing. I can 'sling' the arms
through with my body but I haven't been able to 'sling' my torso. In
that regard I have come to believe that the mental concept one has of the
swing is key and that possibly it would be productive to consider the backswing
as 'strain' and the entire downswing as 'release'.
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

January 7th, 2006, 7:19 am #3

Hi all
I have read thru the entire archive. There is some great stuff there. One very appealing article was started by "cd" called "leg power" and dated November 28 2004. I would suggest reading it with this thread.
The photos I alluded to in the previous thread are at
http://www.michaelmtalianchich.com/golfrichard1.htm
The reflex swing is based upon leg power as the sole source of power. I find this difficult to achieve.
If I pause at the top of the backswing and then initiate the downswing with my knees (rotational) or legs sliding (linear) or hips sliding, the hands and arms only move down so much. The legs etc do not bring my arms/hands/clubhead back to the ball automatically or in reflex. I have to consciouslly allow my arms/hands/clubhead to come back to the ball. So in my opinion, is not the reflex swing a combination of legs and arms. In other words, just using my legs does not bring my clubhead back to the ball. What am I missing?? Has anyone tried what "cd" advocated.
Richard mentions that he gets his leg power to work by just turning to talk to someone at the dinner table. I tried this and I must admit that I have to use my shoulders to do the turning as my legs don't do diddly squat for me. I would end up talking to the wine bottle. Any further enlightment on this subject would be appreciated

Mr confused
mike t
Mike,
My downswing feels as if it is fully powered by leg drive or thrust. As you know, Richard feels the swing as a turn (and un-turn) initiated by the legs. He occasionally mentions that he feels the large muscles of the back coming into play. I do not claim categorically that none of my upper body muscles contract and exert effort, but it certainly feels that way. Perhaps my body is well enough trained such that I don't perceive that effort. When I set up properly and do a slow, deliberate backswing ('out' not inside), I feel I'm connected and any movement of my legs will pull everything down. This brings to mind Ben Hogan's statement in 'Five Lessons' that the first part of his downswing was a pulling of the club down to about waist level with hip action alone. If the club can be pulled that far down by the lower body, why not all the way through to impact? Heck, the last part of the downswing is wrist uncocking (loss of lead arm/club shaft angle) and is going to happen anyway.

Blake described his downswing as a "...horizontal rotating movement and it is the backswing in reverse." I interpret the 'horizontal rotating' to mean that leg energy causes the hips to slide horizontally and rotate back to their address position. I am not certain what he meant by 'downswing is the backswing in reverse'. I have my doubts that the downswing could be an exact retracing of the backswing path. For one thing, hands are closer to the body at address than at impact. Perhaps you could compare Richard's backswing and downswing paths to see how closely they match. When I was corresponding with Mindy he repeatedly told me to make sure that my trail elbow was not getting out of place (going too far back in backswing) resulting in a poor lower-upper body connection. Good luck, Jim


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Joined: December 23rd, 2004, 12:51 am

January 9th, 2006, 12:30 pm #4

Hi all
I have read thru the entire archive. There is some great stuff there. One very appealing article was started by "cd" called "leg power" and dated November 28 2004. I would suggest reading it with this thread.
The photos I alluded to in the previous thread are at
http://www.michaelmtalianchich.com/golfrichard1.htm
The reflex swing is based upon leg power as the sole source of power. I find this difficult to achieve.
If I pause at the top of the backswing and then initiate the downswing with my knees (rotational) or legs sliding (linear) or hips sliding, the hands and arms only move down so much. The legs etc do not bring my arms/hands/clubhead back to the ball automatically or in reflex. I have to consciouslly allow my arms/hands/clubhead to come back to the ball. So in my opinion, is not the reflex swing a combination of legs and arms. In other words, just using my legs does not bring my clubhead back to the ball. What am I missing?? Has anyone tried what "cd" advocated.
Richard mentions that he gets his leg power to work by just turning to talk to someone at the dinner table. I tried this and I must admit that I have to use my shoulders to do the turning as my legs don't do diddly squat for me. I would end up talking to the wine bottle. Any further enlightment on this subject would be appreciated

Mr confused
mike t
You will have noticed in older posts the mention of 'twisting the rubber brick' i.e. pre-turning the shoulders 'against' the hips so that the torso is stretched (but relaxed on the 'swing' side). In this state any rotation of the hips will produce a rotation of the shoulders. Richard's rotation of his lead knee towards the target (I don't think it straightens but merely rotates with the same bend - appearance of straightening may be due to perspective) will produce a rotation of the hips (as well as a lateral shift) and through the relaxed but stretched transmission muscles of the torso a subsequent shoulder rotation.

I think Richard's comment about turning at dinner was intended to convey the level of effort vs the specific muscles involved.

If you do not hold your arms up, gravity will cause them to go down. While obvious this is not so simple to execute as it sounds in part because there is a need to maintain 'structure' of the arms vs just letting them go completely limp. It's this structure that will support your trail elbow getting to the 'spring position'.

I suspect that the Blake adopters that are experiencing pulls, pull hooks and fats are likely using the upper body/arms vs allowing the development of the swing from the lower body action.

FYI - though I 'produce' the Blake DVD I do not use the Blake swing. However the lead knee action to initiate the swing along with the lack of active upper body 'action' to accelerate the club are tenants of the Bertholy system which I use.
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Richard Wax
Richard Wax

January 11th, 2006, 11:36 am #5

Hi all
I have read thru the entire archive. There is some great stuff there. One very appealing article was started by "cd" called "leg power" and dated November 28 2004. I would suggest reading it with this thread.
The photos I alluded to in the previous thread are at
http://www.michaelmtalianchich.com/golfrichard1.htm
The reflex swing is based upon leg power as the sole source of power. I find this difficult to achieve.
If I pause at the top of the backswing and then initiate the downswing with my knees (rotational) or legs sliding (linear) or hips sliding, the hands and arms only move down so much. The legs etc do not bring my arms/hands/clubhead back to the ball automatically or in reflex. I have to consciouslly allow my arms/hands/clubhead to come back to the ball. So in my opinion, is not the reflex swing a combination of legs and arms. In other words, just using my legs does not bring my clubhead back to the ball. What am I missing?? Has anyone tried what "cd" advocated.
Richard mentions that he gets his leg power to work by just turning to talk to someone at the dinner table. I tried this and I must admit that I have to use my shoulders to do the turning as my legs don't do diddly squat for me. I would end up talking to the wine bottle. Any further enlightment on this subject would be appreciated

Mr confused
mike t
Hi Mike

Good job on the photos.

Re the power of the legs, perhaps you are not able to eliminate introducing the arms into the creation of power because you haven't started from an open enough position with the legs. If I assume my usual stance at 40° open to the hole and push the clubhead back say two thirds backswing, I find that just with a drive from the legs I can bring the clubhead over the ball with absolutely no need to use the arms.

All the inital angles established at the address are maintained throughout the swing which explains the boringly repetitious nature of the shots the swing produces.

Here's an exercise which we used in coaching courses last summer. Tie a rope to a tree and adjust your body to exert maximum leverage on the rope. Try the conventional swing address position and pull on the rope down the line of the shot. Feel the muscles which are being used. Hands, wrists, forearms ie the weakest parts of the body and those which will age the quickest.

Now adopt the Mindy open stance. Feel the change of muscles to the back and hips. Also feel the increase in leverage which this stance generates.
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