Grip Change

Grip Change

Joined: September 22nd, 2005, 12:13 am

July 20th, 2009, 1:42 pm #1

I am experimenting with the grip change and wonder what one does on chips and pitches. Is there a grip change on short shots?
Cheers
Mac
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Ingvar Bejvel
Ingvar Bejvel

July 21st, 2009, 10:05 pm #2

I do the grip change and keep my rear elbow clinging to my torso as much as possible. The chip is very much a leg action, keeping the lead wrist bent under. On the pitch the elbow leaves the torso on the back swing, coming back on the down swing. One key note is relaxation of the limbs.

Ingvar
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

July 22nd, 2009, 8:37 pm #3

I am experimenting with the grip change and wonder what one does on chips and pitches. Is there a grip change on short shots?
Cheers
Mac
The grip change has always been the most controversial element of Mindy's swing. In GSOTF he said you shouldn't try it until playing to single-digit handicap. Then in GTTB he as much as said it is an essential element of the swing. However, two of our members who have done very well with their own versions of the reflex swing, Chris W and Julian Z, use a fixed grip. On the other hand, Richard Wax, still playing to a low handicap in his mid-sixties, has always employed the grip change. I once mentioned to Richard that it seemed to me the grip change was really nothing more than a grip "completion," ie, when executed properly the two hands come together naturally and it is complete by end of takeaway. Richard began referring to the move as a grip completion and used that terminology in the lesson he presents on the Combined Riviera and Orlando DVD which the forum offers for a nominal fee.

Blake's ratonale for the move was that it (1) helps keep the trail elbow forward in the backswing, and (2) keeps the clubface square going back. My own experience has been that it took me a long time to feel comfortable with the grip completion. When I first met and talked with Mindy about his statement in first book that it should only be used after attaining a single-digit handicap, he said, "You look reasonably athletic to me, so go ahead and start using it." My athleticism is not extraordinary and I surmise that anyone could master the grip completion.

At this point I should mention that since member Tom N obtained the actual video of Mindy swinging a club on a 1973 Mike Douglas TV show, more detailed analysis of Blake's swing has been possible. Tom concluded that Mindy's swing is rather conventional, though elite, and he did NOT keep the clubface square throughout his swing (it opened and closed somewhat conventionally). So did Mindy incorporate a move that was, in fact, unnecesary and perhaps even complicated swing execution? You'll have to decide for yourself. Even if it doesn't keep the clubface square, it may help keep the trail elbow forward (connected). You might consider practicing it until it feels smooth and natural. The backswing should be relatively slow anyway, so you will get the hang of it with a some persistence. Then, if it improves your swing, incorporate it, otherwise dispense with it. SD
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

July 22nd, 2009, 8:44 pm #4

I do the grip change and keep my rear elbow clinging to my torso as much as possible. The chip is very much a leg action, keeping the lead wrist bent under. On the pitch the elbow leaves the torso on the back swing, coming back on the down swing. One key note is relaxation of the limbs.

Ingvar
Ingvar,
What do you think of Mindy's and Richard's avowals that putting should be a leg-controlled action? Can you do that? At address for putting, Richard seems to rest his trail elbow on his trail inner thigh so that movement of trail leg would sort of pull the trail arm and putter through. How's your reflex swing going this year? Jim
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Joined: June 23rd, 2005, 6:49 pm

July 23rd, 2009, 1:50 pm #5

Hi James and all (?!) of you reflex swingers!

Thanks for asking! My Blake swing is technically at its best but my total game needs improving. This spring and early summer hasn't given me much opportunity to work on my game but hopefully the rest of the season will be more 'golfable'.

Yesterday I saw my best drives ever which is a really good piece of news when you're closer to seventy than sixty! The one decisive feature of that result is my hand action. I am really creating that V-angle by screwing my right hand's middle fingers on to the shaft. This enables me to close the club face on the backswing. There is nothing new in this feature but what I hadn't realised before was the need to maintain the angle with a really firm grip through impact. By doing so you won't lose power as you would if you have an indifferent grip or trying to make a drop shot in tennis when you certainly would use a soft wrist.

My short game is thriving and I certainly put with my legs as described by Richard. One odd thing is that I started using the open stance even before reading Blake's second book where he introduced his open stance on all shots. I've found that on long putts I do guage distance more effectively and that when you motor the swing with your legs your long putts will go straighter with less effort. Now, I use a long putter up the inside of my lead arm, grip secured by both index fingers along the shaft. I don't beleive in the pendulum, but use one third backwards and two thirds forwards.

Regards,

Ingvar
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

July 24th, 2009, 10:33 pm #6

Ingvar,
With respect to the grip, after you have screwed the two right-hand middle fingers (to the left) on the club, as you start to take the club back, do you find that your right hand 'slips' on the shaft slightly (to the right) in order for the two hands to come together and form a firm grip? Or, do your two hands come together in some different way, ie, right hand not 'slipping' on the shaft but rather some other mechanism? Jim
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Joined: June 23rd, 2005, 6:49 pm

July 29th, 2009, 9:26 am #7

James, thanks for keeping this forum going. Sorry that I haven't been able to reply to your questions about the grip completion, but I've abroad (not too far away, only Norway!).

1. I do screw my two middle fingers clockwise looking at the shaft from above (going under and up on the shaft). The little finger is being put out of action by my putting it between the left hands index and long finger.

2. The completion takes place rather early in the backswing as the hands go outwards following the line of the open stanced feet.

3. For chips and reduced pitches I set the grip from the start.

4. I've recently discovered that I was setting my right thumb behind the shaft since it helped getting the action between the two hands. However, I think this fact has led to my erratic play the last two years. One good shot, the next disastrous! So I'm now relearning getting the thumb over and to the left of the shaft as shown in fig 5 of GTB. I think this detail has had a major impact on the execution of the swing.

I'll get back to you on my findings!

Ingvar
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

July 29th, 2009, 9:46 pm #8

Ingvar,

You wrote: "I do screw my two middle fingers clockwise looking at the shaft from above (going under and up on the shaft). The little finger is being put out of action by my putting it between the left hands index and long finger."

When you say "...clockwise looking at the shaft from above (going under and up on the shaft)," do you mean looking at the shaft from the golfer's perspective, rather than the perspective of an observer? If so, I don't understand your use of the word "clockwise." I believe that the two middle fingers of the trail hand (right in my case) should be screwed on to the club counterclockwise, or to the left, or toward the target. Blake was very clear about this in GSOTF where he wrote: "The right hand is placed on the club by taking the shaft in the middle and third fingers and 'screwing' the hand to the left.

Interestingly, Blake altered the grip slightly in GTTB. He "weakened" the left hand grip from three-to-four knuckles showing to a two-to-three knuckles showing in GTTB. The right hand looks a bit different in the grip drawings of the two books. In figure 22 of GSOTF the V between the trail thumb and forefinger appears to point to his lead shoulder and the back of that hand is quite visible. In figure 6 of GTTB the V not "screwed as far to the left (toward the target) and back of trail hand is less visible.

Regards, Jim
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

July 30th, 2009, 12:07 am #9

is a complicated business.
Normally I would say that screwing is a clockwise affair
while unscrewing would normally be counter-clockwise.
I know that there are some screws that are screwed
counter-clockwise however, and so maybe it is possible
that in Europe people predominately screw counter-clockwise.
This brings into question Blake's understanding of screwing.
I certainly do not presume to know whether he screwed
clockwise or counter-clockwise. It is known that he screwed
to the left (or towards his target) but did he screw to the
left over the top of his shaft or to his left under the bottom of his shaft?
I must confess that I am at a loss as to how to screw.
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Joined: June 23rd, 2005, 6:49 pm

July 30th, 2009, 12:31 pm #10

Ingvar,

You wrote: "I do screw my two middle fingers clockwise looking at the shaft from above (going under and up on the shaft). The little finger is being put out of action by my putting it between the left hands index and long finger."

When you say "...clockwise looking at the shaft from above (going under and up on the shaft)," do you mean looking at the shaft from the golfer's perspective, rather than the perspective of an observer? If so, I don't understand your use of the word "clockwise." I believe that the two middle fingers of the trail hand (right in my case) should be screwed on to the club counterclockwise, or to the left, or toward the target. Blake was very clear about this in GSOTF where he wrote: "The right hand is placed on the club by taking the shaft in the middle and third fingers and 'screwing' the hand to the left.

Interestingly, Blake altered the grip slightly in GTTB. He "weakened" the left hand grip from three-to-four knuckles showing to a two-to-three knuckles showing in GTTB. The right hand looks a bit different in the grip drawings of the two books. In figure 22 of GSOTF the V between the trail thumb and forefinger appears to point to his lead shoulder and the back of that hand is quite visible. In figure 6 of GTTB the V not "screwed as far to the left (toward the target) and back of trail hand is less visible.

Regards, Jim
Over the years we have discussed this matter and I admit it is a bit difficult to explain, otherwise we would have understood Blake from the start. I'll try to make a new dive into the seemingly enigma, and I'll deal with CDs comment at the same time.

1. Take the club with the blade facing target. Look down the shaft. The round circle of the club shaft will serve as a clock face!

2. The lead (left) hand is placed with the thumb at three o'clock, a bit drawn up (Blake says a quarter from the top e g 12 o'clock. He was adamant about the need for this thumb grip in order to get 'feel'. It is true that he talks about a two to three knuckle grip in GTB and a four knuckle grip in his first book but let's leave that for now!)

3. The rear (right) grips the shaft with the middle fingers going under the shaft (via six o'clock), landing somewhere at 12 o'clock and thereby rounding the rear wrist. That is what consider a clockwise screwing motion (can we still use this word without contamination risk!?). The thumb will be placed between 11 and 12 o'clock.

4. The rear hand's middle fingers thus placed will then form a pressure on the shaft that could be considered as a counter clockwise or unscrewing motion as the wrist flexes back. My point is that you must first screw on before you unscrew.

5. The purpose of this screwing procedure is to create the pressure between the two hands needed to make the work as one unit, the lead arm/hand going counter clockwise in the beginning of the backswing, helped by the grip by the rear hand's wrist flexing, while the middle fingers support the closing of the club head.

I realise that you are still confused, but at a higher level! But this is my take on Blake!

Regards,

Ingvar, your Swedish correspondent


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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

July 31st, 2009, 6:31 pm #11

is a complicated business.
Normally I would say that screwing is a clockwise affair
while unscrewing would normally be counter-clockwise.
I know that there are some screws that are screwed
counter-clockwise however, and so maybe it is possible
that in Europe people predominately screw counter-clockwise.
This brings into question Blake's understanding of screwing.
I certainly do not presume to know whether he screwed
clockwise or counter-clockwise. It is known that he screwed
to the left (or towards his target) but did he screw to the
left over the top of his shaft or to his left under the bottom of his shaft?
I must confess that I am at a loss as to how to screw.
So sorry, cd, my condolences as this is an awful condition which no one should have to bear. Viagra might help if your arteries are clogged or testosterone injections if libido is the problem. Testosterone therapy may render you ineligible to play in your club's championship tournament, but might be worth it in terms of overall life satisfaction. Jim
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

July 31st, 2009, 6:44 pm #12

Over the years we have discussed this matter and I admit it is a bit difficult to explain, otherwise we would have understood Blake from the start. I'll try to make a new dive into the seemingly enigma, and I'll deal with CDs comment at the same time.

1. Take the club with the blade facing target. Look down the shaft. The round circle of the club shaft will serve as a clock face!

2. The lead (left) hand is placed with the thumb at three o'clock, a bit drawn up (Blake says a quarter from the top e g 12 o'clock. He was adamant about the need for this thumb grip in order to get 'feel'. It is true that he talks about a two to three knuckle grip in GTB and a four knuckle grip in his first book but let's leave that for now!)

3. The rear (right) grips the shaft with the middle fingers going under the shaft (via six o'clock), landing somewhere at 12 o'clock and thereby rounding the rear wrist. That is what consider a clockwise screwing motion (can we still use this word without contamination risk!?). The thumb will be placed between 11 and 12 o'clock.

4. The rear hand's middle fingers thus placed will then form a pressure on the shaft that could be considered as a counter clockwise or unscrewing motion as the wrist flexes back. My point is that you must first screw on before you unscrew.

5. The purpose of this screwing procedure is to create the pressure between the two hands needed to make the work as one unit, the lead arm/hand going counter clockwise in the beginning of the backswing, helped by the grip by the rear hand's wrist flexing, while the middle fingers support the closing of the club head.

I realise that you are still confused, but at a higher level! But this is my take on Blake!

Regards,

Ingvar, your Swedish correspondent

Hello Swedish Correspondent,
I hesitate to continue this discussion as it may simply add to confusion. Even so, in my mind, Blake's statement in GSOTF was clearest, ie, "The right [trail] hand is placed on the club by taking the shaft in the middle and third fingers and 'screwing' the hand to the left." "Left" would mean toward the target, assuming by "left" he was referring to the golfer's perspective of "left." Figure 22 in GSOTF appears to depict just this. This is also what I recall from watching Mindy himself grip a golf club. Jim
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

August 1st, 2009, 6:01 pm #13

So sorry, cd, my condolences as this is an awful condition which no one should have to bear. Viagra might help if your arteries are clogged or testosterone injections if libido is the problem. Testosterone therapy may render you ineligible to play in your club's championship tournament, but might be worth it in terms of overall life satisfaction. Jim
for your thoughtful advice.

Now that I've got screwing to the left and
screwing to the right and screwing clockwise
and counter-clockwise mastered,
what do I do when I screw up.?
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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

August 10th, 2009, 8:36 pm #14

Hello Swedish Correspondent,
I hesitate to continue this discussion as it may simply add to confusion. Even so, in my mind, Blake's statement in GSOTF was clearest, ie, "The right [trail] hand is placed on the club by taking the shaft in the middle and third fingers and 'screwing' the hand to the left." "Left" would mean toward the target, assuming by "left" he was referring to the golfer's perspective of "left." Figure 22 in GSOTF appears to depict just this. This is also what I recall from watching Mindy himself grip a golf club. Jim
".....taking the shaft in the middle and third fingers and 'screwing' the hand to the left."

Jim, did he mean the fingers at the bottom of the shaft "screwed left" under the bottom or
the thumb pad at the top of the shaft "screwed left" over the top?

After all; When you screw you're either moving left at the top and right at the bottom
or right at the top and left at the bottom. In short, when you screw you are pressuring
the shaft in opposite directions simultaneously.
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Joined: September 6th, 2004, 3:46 am

August 14th, 2009, 4:30 pm #15

My understanding has always been that he meant thumb pad at the top of the shaft screwed left over the top. If you look at figure 23 in GSOTF this becomes obvious in that the V between thumb and forefinger of trail (right) hand (after screwing on of middle fingers) is pointing at the lead (left) shoulder. Interestingly, if you compare that with figure 6 in GTTB, the screwing on of the two middle fingers of trail (right) hand does not appear to be as extreme as in figure 23 of GSOTF. You can't see the knuckles on the back of his trail (right) hand in figure 6 as you can in figure 23. Jim
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