Chazman is not OTT.....Ham...

Chazman is not OTT.....Ham...

Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 15th, 2007, 2:26 pm #1

Why do you bring up Peter from the other board? I don't care what Peter thinks.He certainly has been wrong about other things so what makes you think he is right about this?

You seem to be unable to make a judgment one way or the other. I also see the same video as you but I CAN see flaws in Chazmans swing that indicate an OTT swing flaw.

The most obvious flaw he has is that his back swing is laid off going back and then, at the start of the downswing, he demonstrates an outward thrusting motion. This is clear to see. Chazman doesn't drop his club down and back 'into the slot'. His swing sequence is completely back wards and his club is heading OUT in the wrong direction at start of DS.

If you have studied videos of OTT type swings you will see this as a most common flaw. It is possible,that on some swings, he technically does not break the swing plane line BUT make no mistake about it, his flaw is OTT.

The resulting, most common ball flight tendency will be either a slice or a pull hook or a duck hook. (Chazman admits to this).

If this is such an "easy fix" what would you do to fix it?



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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 15th, 2007, 3:28 pm #2

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Joined: April 10th, 2007, 11:58 pm

August 15th, 2007, 3:29 pm #3

Why do you bring up Peter from the other board? I don't care what Peter thinks.He certainly has been wrong about other things so what makes you think he is right about this?

You seem to be unable to make a judgment one way or the other. I also see the same video as you but I CAN see flaws in Chazmans swing that indicate an OTT swing flaw.

The most obvious flaw he has is that his back swing is laid off going back and then, at the start of the downswing, he demonstrates an outward thrusting motion. This is clear to see. Chazman doesn't drop his club down and back 'into the slot'. His swing sequence is completely back wards and his club is heading OUT in the wrong direction at start of DS.

If you have studied videos of OTT type swings you will see this as a most common flaw. It is possible,that on some swings, he technically does not break the swing plane line BUT make no mistake about it, his flaw is OTT.

The resulting, most common ball flight tendency will be either a slice or a pull hook or a duck hook. (Chazman admits to this).

If this is such an "easy fix" what would you do to fix it?


simply by NOT making a shoulder turn going back (not literally, but not to where he was self conscious) BECAUSE IF SOMEONE DOES ROTATE TOO MUCH, THE FIRST MOTION IS A REBOUD OUTWARD. The problem is not "trying to do it right." The problem for many is BUILDING INTO THE BACKSWING A SPRING-LOAD THAT HAS TO REBOUND because it was so wound up.

Just swinging "up" will turn the shoulders enough, so the "up" can be followed with a "down" without involving the rebound at all - a simple "up/down" in the same slot down as up.

It really is easy when you eliminate the REAL CAUSE of the OTT, which is too subtle for most people to pick up on it.

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Joined: October 29th, 2006, 3:58 pm

August 15th, 2007, 3:32 pm #4

Why do you bring up Peter from the other board? I don't care what Peter thinks.He certainly has been wrong about other things so what makes you think he is right about this?

You seem to be unable to make a judgment one way or the other. I also see the same video as you but I CAN see flaws in Chazmans swing that indicate an OTT swing flaw.

The most obvious flaw he has is that his back swing is laid off going back and then, at the start of the downswing, he demonstrates an outward thrusting motion. This is clear to see. Chazman doesn't drop his club down and back 'into the slot'. His swing sequence is completely back wards and his club is heading OUT in the wrong direction at start of DS.

If you have studied videos of OTT type swings you will see this as a most common flaw. It is possible,that on some swings, he technically does not break the swing plane line BUT make no mistake about it, his flaw is OTT.

The resulting, most common ball flight tendency will be either a slice or a pull hook or a duck hook. (Chazman admits to this).

If this is such an "easy fix" what would you do to fix it?


but if Mr Chazman is ott like you say, would Jim Hardy's
one plane swing be a good choice for him?
Swing back sharply too the inside and feel like a ott move
with the trail shoulder on the way down.

JC
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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 15th, 2007, 4:08 pm #5

simply by NOT making a shoulder turn going back (not literally, but not to where he was self conscious) BECAUSE IF SOMEONE DOES ROTATE TOO MUCH, THE FIRST MOTION IS A REBOUD OUTWARD. The problem is not "trying to do it right." The problem for many is BUILDING INTO THE BACKSWING A SPRING-LOAD THAT HAS TO REBOUND because it was so wound up.

Just swinging "up" will turn the shoulders enough, so the "up" can be followed with a "down" without involving the rebound at all - a simple "up/down" in the same slot down as up.

It really is easy when you eliminate the REAL CAUSE of the OTT, which is too subtle for most people to pick up on it.
Do you agree that Chazman has an OTT swing?

Have you ever been a chronic OTT swinger yourself?

Certainly many Pros have a deeper shoulder turn than Chaz and don't have 'spring load' problem.

"Building into the backswing a spring-load that has to rebound." seems to be what most pros want do for more power. The X factor.

With all due respect, it seems like your fix solution is to not really change his swing but rather take what he has and make it as good as it can be. You want to put him in a mechanical position that will not allow him to go OTT.

My argument against this type of 'fix' is that his thought process remains the same. Nothing changed other than him thinking about his shoulder position.

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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 15th, 2007, 4:24 pm #6

but if Mr Chazman is ott like you say, would Jim Hardy's
one plane swing be a good choice for him?
Swing back sharply too the inside and feel like a ott move
with the trail shoulder on the way down.

JC
Chazman keeps trying to buy a new swing. He has too many books and videos already and doesn't need any more mechanical instruction 'Methods'.

People have hope that if they could just find the right 'Key' that they could improve. They have hopes that there may be some instruction out there that will send them down the right road. A simple mechanical change of grip or stance or arm position or even a new set of game improvement clubs rarely give any relief to the OTT swinger like Chaz.

In my opinion there is only one way Chaz can fix his swing. He needs to change the way he sees it. His perception is wrong.
I agree with Mr. Hibbard... I wouldn't fix his swing: CHAZ WOULD.



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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

August 15th, 2007, 4:26 pm #7

Chaz's right arm at the top. It's bent double
at shoulder height. He can't go anywhere from
there but OTT. He immediately throws his hands
out ahead of his right elbow.
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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 15th, 2007, 5:56 pm #8

In your mind, reverse the video and play it backwards. That would look much better. From the same top of swing position he wants to drop his hands and club rearward and get back on plane.

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Joined: August 2nd, 2004, 11:57 pm

August 15th, 2007, 6:13 pm #9

The position shown after his first move down should
be part of his backswing path.

He goes too far inside going back and has to do
a judo throw to hit the ball.
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Joined: March 17th, 2007, 8:45 pm

August 15th, 2007, 7:02 pm #10

Chazman keeps trying to buy a new swing. He has too many books and videos already and doesn't need any more mechanical instruction 'Methods'.

People have hope that if they could just find the right 'Key' that they could improve. They have hopes that there may be some instruction out there that will send them down the right road. A simple mechanical change of grip or stance or arm position or even a new set of game improvement clubs rarely give any relief to the OTT swinger like Chaz.

In my opinion there is only one way Chaz can fix his swing. He needs to change the way he sees it. His perception is wrong.
I agree with Mr. Hibbard... I wouldn't fix his swing: CHAZ WOULD.


and what one "Should" I have about a golf swing.

P.S. The swing video is of me doing the Count Yogi swing, and interestingly enough I percieve that swing to be the most upright (with least amount of shoulder turn) then any other I have tried???
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Joined: April 10th, 2007, 11:58 pm

August 16th, 2007, 11:30 am #11

Do you agree that Chazman has an OTT swing?

Have you ever been a chronic OTT swinger yourself?

Certainly many Pros have a deeper shoulder turn than Chaz and don't have 'spring load' problem.

"Building into the backswing a spring-load that has to rebound." seems to be what most pros want do for more power. The X factor.

With all due respect, it seems like your fix solution is to not really change his swing but rather take what he has and make it as good as it can be. You want to put him in a mechanical position that will not allow him to go OTT.

My argument against this type of 'fix' is that his thought process remains the same. Nothing changed other than him thinking about his shoulder position.
Chaz's top of swing position OF HIS HANDS, hence of his club, is what is out of position.

He springloads HIS ARMS vis-a-vis his shoulders, not his shoulders vis-a-vis his body. But a good shoulder turn WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF when he swings his hands to the RIGHT place.

I deal with this issue in almost all of the "good players" who come to me for instruction: it is a common mistake of conscientious golfers.

Take a look of downtheline of David Toms, Tiger, or a million other good swings. The hands of the golfer DO NOT MOVE TO YOUR LEFT, TO THE BEHIND OF THE GOLFER, AS THEY COME AWAY FROM THE BALL. THEY MOVE DIRECTLY TOWARDS THE CAMERA, AND THEN THEY SLANT SLIGHTLY ---SLIGHTLY -- TOWARDS THE TIP OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER. And end up above the tip of it.

Chaz's hands move way left of the viewer from that angle and then they go up to a place BEHIND his shoulder, not above it.

So it is the ARMS that are going to the wrong place creating the rebound.

If there were no rebound, curing the OTT would be instantaneous just by telling yourself not to do it. The reason it remains is because the body cannot resist the strain and rebound outward OF THE ARMS.

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Joined: August 3rd, 2004, 5:42 pm

August 16th, 2007, 11:31 am #12

Why do you bring up Peter from the other board? I don't care what Peter thinks.He certainly has been wrong about other things so what makes you think he is right about this?

You seem to be unable to make a judgment one way or the other. I also see the same video as you but I CAN see flaws in Chazmans swing that indicate an OTT swing flaw.

The most obvious flaw he has is that his back swing is laid off going back and then, at the start of the downswing, he demonstrates an outward thrusting motion. This is clear to see. Chazman doesn't drop his club down and back 'into the slot'. His swing sequence is completely back wards and his club is heading OUT in the wrong direction at start of DS.

If you have studied videos of OTT type swings you will see this as a most common flaw. It is possible,that on some swings, he technically does not break the swing plane line BUT make no mistake about it, his flaw is OTT.

The resulting, most common ball flight tendency will be either a slice or a pull hook or a duck hook. (Chazman admits to this).

If this is such an "easy fix" what would you do to fix it?


You even say so yourself. "he technically does not break the swing plane line BUT make no mistake about it, his flaw is OTT."

Not breaking the swingplane line means that he is NOT OTT. End of story.

If he was coming over the plane then that is something different, but he is not.

I bring up Peter because I agree with his analysis and he is a very respected poster.

I have studied OTT swings for over twenty years and have zero problem correcting them.

In Chazman's case it is the clubface flaw that needs to be corrected if his main complaint today is hooking. I am not sure if that is the case at present though. I think that was more his problem with SS.

Ham

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Joined: April 10th, 2007, 11:58 pm

August 16th, 2007, 11:34 am #13

and what one "Should" I have about a golf swing.

P.S. The swing video is of me doing the Count Yogi swing, and interestingly enough I percieve that swing to be the most upright (with least amount of shoulder turn) then any other I have tried???
Chaz: it's where you put your HANDS - i.e., you put them BEHIND your right shoulder blade instead of in FRONT of it. So THE ARMS relieve the strain as the transition is permitted to begin BY MOVING OUTWARD. If they were not behind, but in line with, the tip of the right shoulder, at the top, there would be no strain, hence no rebound, hence a downswing that began on plane without the first bad movement.

Think of this: if you have a pistol with a 4" barrel, the direction of the bullet is predetermined by those FIRST FOUR INCHES: you cannot change its direction once begun.

Same here: eliminate the strain, allow the downswing to get started WITHOUT the rebound, and voila, NO MORE OTT.

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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 16th, 2007, 1:39 pm #14

You even say so yourself. "he technically does not break the swing plane line BUT make no mistake about it, his flaw is OTT."

Not breaking the swingplane line means that he is NOT OTT. End of story.

If he was coming over the plane then that is something different, but he is not.

I bring up Peter because I agree with his analysis and he is a very respected poster.

I have studied OTT swings for over twenty years and have zero problem correcting them.

In Chazman's case it is the clubface flaw that needs to be corrected if his main complaint today is hooking. I am not sure if that is the case at present though. I think that was more his problem with SS.

Ham
What I said was..."It is possible,that on SOME swings, he technically does not break the swing plane line" I didn't say all swings. The majority will be OTT.

You say Chazman... "is not OTT" then my question is what DO you see in the video analysis posted above?

You clearly stated that don't see any OTT problem and your diagnosis of Chazs swing is "it is the clubface flaw that needs to be corrected"

What do you mean by "clubface flaw" and how would you correct that flaw ?

Do you see his outward thrust at start of downswing as placing the club onto the correct swing path?


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Joined: March 1st, 2007, 9:52 pm

August 16th, 2007, 1:52 pm #15

Chaz's top of swing position OF HIS HANDS, hence of his club, is what is out of position.

He springloads HIS ARMS vis-a-vis his shoulders, not his shoulders vis-a-vis his body. But a good shoulder turn WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF when he swings his hands to the RIGHT place.

I deal with this issue in almost all of the "good players" who come to me for instruction: it is a common mistake of conscientious golfers.

Take a look of downtheline of David Toms, Tiger, or a million other good swings. The hands of the golfer DO NOT MOVE TO YOUR LEFT, TO THE BEHIND OF THE GOLFER, AS THEY COME AWAY FROM THE BALL. THEY MOVE DIRECTLY TOWARDS THE CAMERA, AND THEN THEY SLANT SLIGHTLY ---SLIGHTLY -- TOWARDS THE TIP OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER. And end up above the tip of it.

Chaz's hands move way left of the viewer from that angle and then they go up to a place BEHIND his shoulder, not above it.

So it is the ARMS that are going to the wrong place creating the rebound.

If there were no rebound, curing the OTT would be instantaneous just by telling yourself not to do it. The reason it remains is because the body cannot resist the strain and rebound outward OF THE ARMS.
So you would like to see his hands slightly higher above his shoulder instead of behind his shoulder?

Do you agree that Chaz is an OTT type swinger?

Have you ever been a chronic OTT swinger yourself?

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