Why Dozenal Attracts The Intelligent?

richard.chasen
richard.chasen

Nov 18 2016, 02:35 PM #1

I've noticed that everyone I've communicated here has at least above average intelligence and some people here are genius.

I personally have a metaphysical explanation that some people here will disagree with. I'm not trying to sell my beliefs with this posting. But I state them as my opinion.

I think that base systems divisible by 3 tend to foster and nurture intellect because three has that metaphysical quality.

I also think that base systems divisible by 4 foster and nurture health including emotional health. And I believe that intelligent people tend to suffer emotionally due to being different and need this sort of nurturing.

The above are my personal beliefs as to why dozenal attracts the intelligent. I'm interested in reading what others here say about this question.
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icarus
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icarus
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Nov 18 2016, 05:44 PM #2

I've made the same observation but draw different conclusions.

Intelligent people tend to look beyond surface manifestations, beyond the GUI and the OS into the source code of life. Why does this work? Why is it the way it is? These are bold questions that require a great deal of curiosity and ability to follow through with investigation. One can't be a "muggle" (meaning the midwit, someone smarter than average but not exceptional and driven) and retire to spectator sports or mass entertainment. (Nothing inherently wrong with those, btw) These are activities that draw attention and yield little in return. It is people that create or innovate or inspect that come to think about "number bases", "why do we count in tens", because it is in the matrix of our daily life, the water we fish swim in.

I don't think it has much to do with dozenal specifically, but the "tool" that bases are in general, and the resolution that we can improve what we use each day. Then maybe we think about dozenal for its flexibility, for its convenience of size. We might draw different conclusions: senary or sexagesimal or base 120.

The problem with very intelligent people is that they sometimes don't quite remember how outstanding they are, how very few of them there actually is. Somewhere I read that the user base of Mathematica is in the middle ten thousands. We are used to hearing about millions in an audience, but the number of users of software like this is rather small. In the same way, someone with +4 sigma intelligence is one in 15,000. Intelligent people are also far more diverse mentally than the average fellow, like monkeys high in a tree, on separate branches, maybe farther from one another than the ones clinging to the trunk. So even if we were to convene a thousand bright people, we might not be able to contend with one another's thoughts - they might be as different as countries. Very bright people are sometimes (often!) not very socially tactful. Many have no use for other people for the vast preponderance of other people are lost to their ideas. All day, every day, the smart smart person has to walk like a tall man through all the little doorways of life. All that stooping. Finally, many very smart people are full of themselves. It's not so much their fault, but people telling them all their life "oh you're so smart you'll go really far". A corollary to that is that very smart people also feel thwarted, because while bright people have an advantage mentally, a group or mass of muggle coworkers can collude to take down the socially less tactful mental giant, to thwart them, to prevent the mental giant from gaining social influence.

Intelligence is a boon so long as bright people understand that they can't live outside of dealing with the great preponderance of less intelligent, "normal" people, that their intelligence is a gift and won't solve everything. In some ways, brilliance can be a handicap. Enjoying life, for instance. Sometimes, just turn off the mind and bask in the sheer sensual awesomeness of the current moment, just enjoy life. Some smart people cannot condescend to do that. The thought process is comfortable and pleasurable in and of itself, rivaling the pinnacle sensations of the muggle's experience; a smart person gets lulled into believing that's all there is, that base sensations are a trifle. A smart person has to learn to do that, to just shut it off and enjoy life.

My daughter is currently stultified by the plethora of ideas that rise to mind in everyday life. (She has inherited the depth of my mind, something I have warned her that I struggled with and only in college did I become personable.) The average person doesn't think so much. In fact, they want to "not think", because thought requires honesty and many of us justify our actions, rationalize them away; why untangle it? They generally want to dull the mind and make thought go away. But bright people immediately have a dozen thoughts on a stimulus. She can't pick one and run with it yet. She has not learned intuition. Any of the thoughts would suffice or even be brilliant, but she can't discern a quick reaction. This is a smart person problem the muggle does not suffer. The muggle comes in and is content with things as they are, but the smart person has a boxful of thoughts about the thing, a dozen connections and interconnections and references to other thoughts, and things that rest easy with the average mind present the shock that it doesn't have to be that way to the bright person. Ergo, the bright person is more apt to involve themselves in thought about alternate bases than the average person, content to get it over with and count in tens.

I don't subscribe to numerology or mystic qualities of numbers. Too much contradiction. 8 is great and 4 rhymes with "death" and can't be said in public, three is a charm, etc. But in another context, 7 is lucky and 13 really bad.

This is of course my thought on it.
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richard.chasen
richard.chasen

Nov 18 2016, 06:48 PM #3

Icarus, I agree that there is a contradiction problem associated with number mystic qualities. There are too many people assigning meanings based on whims without any careful observations. There is very little contradiction where the same number has been observed over centuries. Its a very difficult subject when done correctly.
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Shaun
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Nov 19 2016, 12:03 PM #4

richard.chasen @ Nov 18 2016, 02:35 PM wrote: I've noticed that everyone I've communicated here has at least above average intelligence and some people here are genius.
Very kind of you - hough what about those of us who were, we thonk, a lot brighter when young? i got rated well over 100 when in my twemnties, but I doubt i could still do a standard Mensa intelligence test again now!
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Double sharp
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Double sharp
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Nov 19 2016, 01:19 PM #5

I think it's mostly just the need to personally analyse everything and draw one's own conclusions, instead of just listening to what has been said. I do feel a need to really understand things that way. I don't feel I understand something unless I can explain why it is so.

I was aware of the dozenalists for several years before I joined the forum, but did not take the idea particularly seriously. Now that I actually have thought about it I have come to my own personal conclusion that while there are seriously good reasons for {12}, I don't believe the advantages are worth the immense trouble of switching or even just having multiple bases in society. But I certainly do feel more secure about it now that I've actually thought about it.
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Kodegadulo
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Nov 19 2016, 02:56 PM #6

Double sharp @ Nov 19 2016, 01:19 PM wrote:I think it's mostly just the need to personally analyse everything and draw one's own conclusions, instead of just listening to what has been said. I do feel a need to really understand things that way. I don't feel I understand something unless I can explain why it is so.

I was aware of the dozenalists for several years before I joined the forum, but did not take the idea particularly seriously. Now that I actually have thought about it I have come to my own personal conclusion that while there are seriously good reasons for {12}, I don't believe the advantages are worth the immense trouble of switching or even just having multiple bases in society. But I certainly do feel more secure about it now that I've actually thought about it.
Hey, Doublesharp, glad to see you're still around! Also glad to see that you think dozenal has "seriously good reasons" in its favor. And I think we all acknowledge that it's farfetched that human "society" would ever switch over, or even tolerate a multi-base scenario. But it does make an intriguing thought experiement: What could life be like, in a dozenal or multi-base world? What harm is there in working out the details of that?

And who knows? A lot of things that were once "impossible" are now commonplace, due to technology. Would our grandparents have believed we can effectively carry whole encyclopedias in our pockets? Would they even have believed that we could carry telephones in our pockets? Who knows what might become possible in the future?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Double sharp
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Nov 19 2016, 03:07 PM #7

I know it can be fun and intriguing, and I have no intention to begrudge any of you that. It's just that I myself am no longer personally interested, to be frank. (I experimented with several softer wordings of this, but in the end it's just that I don't really have any desire to do it now as I used to.)

You raise good points, but I confess I doubt if this is really the same sort of situation. I think we just have way too much stuff written in decimal at this point to really make the switching possible - and the quantity of this material increases every second.
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Kodegadulo
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Nov 19 2016, 03:43 PM #8

Double sharp @ Nov 19 2016, 03:07 PM wrote:I know it can be fun and intriguing, and I have no intention to begrudge any of you that. It's just that I myself am no longer personally interested, to be frank. (I experimented with several softer wordings of this, but in the end it's just that I don't really have any desire to do it now as I used to.)
Well, if it's just not a personal interest of yours any more, no one could argue with that.
You raise good points, but I confess I doubt if this is really the same sort of situation. I think we just have way too much stuff written in decimal at this point to really make the switching possible - and the quantity of this material increases every second.
You know, reams of stuff are being written in German, and in French, every second, which I can only vaguely understand, and reams more in Japanese and Chinese which I cannot understand at all. But I can pump them through Google Translate now and get a sort-of-okay translation. I could not say that even just a few years ago. Who knows what the future will bring?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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icarus
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Nov 19 2016, 07:16 PM #9

You know we have a great deal of time to think about things when we are young and carefree. Back when the world is breaking for you and you're at university, when your responsibilities are handled by others or systems, daydreaming and experimenting are easy and easily enjoyed. It is sort of the point, the protege is protected, the freshman or apprentice has the job of learning and pondering. As we grow, we take on careers and families and roles. Life gets busy and it isn't so easy to daydream.

Dreaming in general is important. Great things come from dreaming.

I decided to partake in dozenalism and indeed it was a conscious decision. I decided that everyone has hobbies, many smart people have enough wherewithal to spend their time in other pursuits aside from work and family and working out and worshiping the Lord or gaia or oneself or whatever. My hobby became mathematics, at first largely number bases. I don't regret the decision. I remember saying that the conlanging I'd done was worthless unless I wrote fiction. The drawing and painting (I was reknown for it in college, won a merit scholarship that paid my way in university on my drawing talents) I decided was utterly a waste of time. I am probably the only ex-artist you'll ever know! Even then, maybe it's just a really long hiatus from it. I'll pull a Degas and do my most brilliant work in my old age.

But I am an architect who draws pictures of construction sites, digitally modeling them ahead of bid tenders (construction proposals and interviews) and I do this exceedingly well. No one does it better and I outrun professional in house graphics groups mainly because I do not have meetings. Meetings tend to waste time in confusion and I avoid confusion. Just keep moving. Moving is better than standing scratching your head.

Number bases are natural. It was a childhood affliction, but I used it onsite and some of you read how I used it. I use bases in business. I also used to program as a kid and now I write a lot of Mathematica. All of these things come together such that my work is pretty rational despite its creativity.

I have benefited greatly from discourse with all of you.

This silly diversion has really helped make me who I am and I am pretty satisfied with it.

I do hope you, Double Sharp, and anyone else really into this, continue to visit now and then. You need not drink kool aid; it's here if you please. We can't begrudge those that have gone through an exhaustive logical trip as yours has been and concluded that there are other things in life to think about. Now and then, honestly, it does happen to me. I actually have a few interests that roll downhill like a braided stream. I get absent from here, but thoroughly present elsewhere. The tendency here in middle age is that mathematics has really become quite prominent and persistent in my interests. Just when I think that I know enough about something as simple as bases, something else turns up and I have to dig to figure it out. I don't know why.

Fascination and learning go hand in hand; thus I do hope that you find fascinating things to enter into in your life whether it be here or elsewhere. Life is full of its seasons and I have entered autumn time. But remember that you have a friend in me, and I will always like to read your words when you visit.

When I was in my late teens and early twenties I was known by everyone as a dark, brooding creative type who could not grow a beard; I looked 15 and I was an artist, creating, sketching, moping, emoting, chasing one particular girl as if she were the only girl only to find women aren't attracted to beta boys. If it wasn't that girl it was another. They were inspirations. But now I am entirely different, enormously confident, create all day and write geeky programs. I am enormously free but handy; I installed two light fixtures today in this old house and had to admonish my daughter for not singing in music class, getting her lowest grade ever (84). The things I do today I could not imagine when I was young. I can't imagine what life will be like when I am old. But at least it will be interesting, and inshallah I will still be here or an analog to here to read what it is you are writing.

Please come and write from time to time! And here is to you, my brothers and sisters in dozens, wherever you may be!
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yantantethera
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Nov 19 2016, 08:40 PM #10

Very interesting, icarus. Very American, if I may say so.

I just don't belong here.
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icarus
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icarus
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Nov 19 2016, 09:23 PM #11

Sure you do. american or not. Just give people some respect. The forum was set up by British dozenalists.
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richard.chasen
richard.chasen

Nov 21 2016, 07:45 PM #12

Double sharp @ Nov 19 2016, 03:07 PM wrote:
I think we just have way too much stuff written in decimal at this point to really make the switching possible - and the quantity of this material increases every second.
You raise a good point. Switching is probably impossible, but adding a new use for dozenal numbers would be a definite possibility. I have such a use.

Counting the age in days of an event and taking prime factors both in dozenal. My method sets the minute of the event as the start of day-one and year-one. If you do this with the age of yourself it has an anti-depressant effect. If this is combined with the Law of Attraction one can make any aspect of one's life prosper.

Aptitude for emotional health is a form of intelligence. People who know about my life are absolutely amazed that I'm not disabled by depression.

I can prove this effect of using dozenal by simply getting dozenalists to imagine giving up dozenal and observing how depressing thoughts like that are. The use of dozenal is addictive but very healthy. Sadly most people don't have the capacity to use a different base system in daily life, for them a printout done by someone else would be necessary.
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Paul Rapoport
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Nov 22 2016, 03:56 PM #13

I'm living a dozenal life as much as possible in a decimal world. This wouldn't have been feasible to the same extent even a few years ago.

But belief that dozenal provides this or that significant mental benefit falls within the vast abyss known as superstition.
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richard.chasen
richard.chasen

Nov 23 2016, 02:47 PM #14

Paul Rapoport @ Nov 22 2016, 03:56 PM wrote: But belief that dozenal provides this or that significant mental benefit falls within the vast abyss known as superstition.
It would be superstition except that I have used this and can explain how and why this activity using dozenal works for me and should work for others.

My system combines several things that most people are ignorant of.

1. Dozenal thinking
2. The Pythagorean concept of numbers having metaphysical or mental aspects.
3. The Law of Attraction. ( I recommend watching the DVD "The Secret" )
4. A Pantheistic understanding of god/universe.
5. Astrology related beliefs combined with a mechanism for astrology.

My system does work. I have demonstrated this.
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schildkroete
schildkroete

May 12 2017, 02:30 AM #15

I think the intelligent are more curious and experimental. Ive always been into alternative stuff that has some use like Esperanto. Ive always liked to create systems and languages and fantastical lands. Hence that leads us to consider things like dozenal.
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richard.chasen
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May 23 2017, 04:05 PM #16

schildkroete @ May 12 2017, 02:30 AM wrote: I think the intelligent are more curious and experimental. Ive always been into alternative stuff that has some use like Esperanto. Ive always liked to create systems and languages and fantastical lands. Hence that leads us to consider things like dozenal.
I agree that it takes above average intelligence to step out of the decimal box.
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Shaun
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May 23 2017, 05:07 PM #17

richard.chasen @ May 23 2017, 05:05 PM wrote:
I agree that it takes above average intelligence to step out of the decimal box.
And yet I had no trouble teaching number bases to 11-year olds in a 'mixed ability' form (a good few years ago). We used bases two (because of the computer) and then base 4 (based on a dog), base 8 (based on an octopus) and then base twelve.
It does not require above average intelligence to follow the ideas of other bases.

Or are you arguing that it takes above average intelligence to discover number bases by yourself without help or tuition?
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Double sharp
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May 24 2017, 12:56 PM #18

Shaun @ May 23 2017, 05:07 PM wrote:
richard.chasen @ May 23 2017, 05:05 PM wrote:
I agree that it takes above average intelligence to step out of the decimal box.
And yet I had no trouble teaching number bases to 11-year olds in a 'mixed ability' form (a good few years ago). We used bases two (because of the computer) and then base 4 (based on a dog), base 8 (based on an octopus) and then base twelve.
It does not require above average intelligence to follow the ideas of other bases.

Or are you arguing that it takes above average intelligence to discover number bases by yourself without help or tuition?
I think the latter is what richard.chasen is thinking of, and in that respect he may well be right.
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Ruthe
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May 26 2017, 02:56 PM #19

Double sharp,May 24 2017, 12:56 PM wrote:Or are you arguing that it takes above average intelligence to discover number bases by yourself without help or tuition?
I think the latter is what richard.chasen is thinking of, and in that respect he may well be right.[/QUOTE]
I also think that is what richard.chasen was implying.

However, folowing on from Shauns's teaching experience, I suspect that most children are turned off mathematics by their teachers. So many are given the task of teaching the maths curriculum but are NOT themselves interested in the subject and this feeling is transferred to the students. I don't know what the existing curriculum includes, but a stronger grounding in the imutable properties of all base systems are NOT passed on. As a major example is the belief of the majority of adults and even students that adding a zero to a number when multiplying by ten or moving the decimal point left one place when dividing by ten is only only possible in base ten. The idea that the same holds true for any base when multiplying or dividing by the base is just not understood. In fact, I am sure that most math teachers don't even know that.

I know I will get a host of denials by the cognizant math teachers, but I feel confident the majority wont comment.

It would only take a little more time and emphasis on the fundamentals of mathematics to correct this poorly understood aspect of the subject.

I applaud the examples used by Shaun in teaching different bases, with 2 as in the binary nature of computers, 4 in the example of dogs with four legs, 8 with the octopus and whatever concrete example he used for 12.

I would suggest two examples for twelve. The six books of Conrad Stargard by Leo Frankowski in which the main character travels in back time and creates a base twelve system of mathematics and weights and Measures and Thr novel by Robert L Forward titled "Dragon's Egg" in which a major character discovers a base 12 number system based on real things in her world as the names of each of the numerals from 1 to twelve.

The ISBNs of these books are listed below.

Dragon's Egg
ISBN 10: 0450051978 / ISBN 13: 9780450051975
Robert L. Forward
Published by New English Library Ltd, 1988


The Adventures of Conrad Stargard

The Cross-Time Engineer (Adventures of Conrad Stargard, Book 1)
ISBN 10: 0345327624 ISBN 13: 9780345327628
Frankowski, Leo A.
Published by Del Rey

The High-Tech Knight (Adventures of Conrad Stargard, Book 2)
ISBN 10: 0345327632 ISBN 13: 9780345327635
Frankowski, Leo A.
Publisher: Del Rey, 1989

The Radiant Warrior (Adventures of Conrad Stargard, Bk 3)
ISBN 10: 0345327640 ISBN 13: 9780345327642
Frankowski, Leo A.
Publisher: Del Rey, 1989

The Flying Warlord (Adventures of Conrad Stargard, Book 4)
ISBN 10: 0345327659 ISBN 13: 9780345327659
Frankowski, Leo A.
Publisher: Ballantine, 1989

Lord Conrad's Lady (Adventures of Conrad Stargard, Book 5)
ISBN 10: 0345368495 ISBN 13: 9780345368492
Frankowski, Leo A.
Published by Del Rey

Conrad's Quest for Rubber (Adventures of Conrad Stargard, Book 6)
ISBN 10: 0345368509 / ISBN 13: 9780345368508
Frankowski, Leo A.
Published by Del Rey
Why a Roman pocket abacus? They used dozenal fractions as their main form of fractions, 12 inches per foot & originally 12 oz per pound (inch=ounce=uncia=1/12). Columns 1 & 2 of the abacus are for dozenal fractions, column two for twelfths and column one, dozenal fractions of a twelfth. Columns 3 through 8 provided a decimal place value system with values from 1s to millions where each lower bead counts as 1 & the upper beads count 5 of a column's base 10 power, Is, Vs, Xs, Ls, Cs ,Ds, Ms etc.
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wendy.krieger
wendy.krieger

May 30 2017, 12:22 PM #20

I should imagine that the brighter students would experiment with a great variety of different things such as might be taught. Sometimes to try different things out.

Over here, the base used is base six, taught in fifth-grade. (I can't recall my father teaching me this). One might try out the various numbers, weights and measures to see what makes them tick. It's kind of like kids pull old things to pieces for the same end.

Other things that might excite interest is the sort of new age metrology that Jim engages in. These sorts of things allow one to exposure of various numerical relationships. These relationships still serve me well, even though i no longer embed them into measurement systems.
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Querty
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Jun 30 2018, 03:00 PM #21

wendy.krieger wrote:
Other things that might excite interest is the sort of new age metrology that Jim engages in. 
If you enjoy playing with nonsensical concepts. There's enough playing with numbers out there already, what with the pyramid stuff, numerology and so on. If someone presents me with a well-thought out theory that is soundly based I am quite happy to look at it; but not all the guff that fills so many heads.
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