## Universal Clocks, Dozenal And Traditional

Dozenal computer tools

# Universal Clocks, Dozenal And Traditional

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
Several people here and elsewhere have proposed getting rid of time zones. The reasons vary. The solutions also vary even if there’s only one simple principle: the time is the same everywhere, and the date changes everywhere when a chosen time occurs in a chosen place.

This spring I plan to come up with such a clock on the Internet that will keep time from one place, probably 0° longitude, wherever that may be. (User choice may move it from Greenwich.) The clock will be dozenal diurnal, possibly with a semi-diurnal option. The question then is: what information is needed in order to use the clock anywhere? More than the current time, it seems.

There’s disagreement whether a clock face with hands is necessary or even useful. In the case of digital only, I figure that the time displayed needs an additional display: the location’s midnight time --- since except at 0°, 000 is not midnight. The offset from 000 will be useful to determine what part of the day is indicated by a particular time in a particular place.

If hands and numbers are used, the shortest, diurnal hand will always indicate the elapsed fraction of the day. Midnight may be at the bottom and noon at the top. Also to choose is whether to reckon the day from midnight or from noon. (There’s at least one person who prefers the latter, making noon 000.)

A further issue is what the clock face does. With time zones, the clock face is stationary but with enough travel, at least one hand moves from one number to another. Without time zones, the hands stay with their numbers but travel makes the clock face rotate according to longitudinal distance from 0°.

One major question arises: how often should the clock face rotate? At present I’m thinking the options might be every d &#124; 30°, 15°, 7.5°, or 2.5°; or continuously.

Whether such a clock is usable, I don’t know. Maybe time zones will be deemed better. Maybe not.

Obsessive poster
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM
If it's a universal clock, then I would think you would want the hands and the markings to remain stable, always tracking Greenwich time (or whatever is deemed latitude zero), since that would be the numeric time for everybody around the world. But then you would have some kind of color scheme, perhaps comparable to UncialClockDeluxe's diurnal clockface, but tilted appropriately to indicate when the local day and night occurs. There would be no need for "time zones" at all, nor "jumping" as you travel. The coloring would just continuously orient itself based on your current longitude, which I presume it would get via GPS. Well, I suppose as a practical matter there would still be effective timezones, since people would want the work day to round to whole hours or dwells of Greenwich time nearest to the usual local stretch of "working daylight".
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
The color idea may work, taking the place of the rotating clock face (although it may still nice to have midnight and noon always on the vertical axis). But you've hit on a problem: time zones in another guise. Rounding to the nearest dwell would create bands like what we have (only twice as wide), with 0° and 180° longitude in the center of a band of a dwell rather than being the demarcation line (in order to avoid, for example, a big change in the middle of London). That doesn't matter in a basic sense; they may be in the center or at the edge. The result is conceptually the same.

Would the effect be an even bigger jump (if not in hands, in orientation of some sort) than what we have now? If one place has the work day starting around z&#124;800, would that mean that crossing a longitude at most d&#124;30° away, the work day would start at 900 or 700? (Depending on the direction from the 800.) Would that require thinking as if there were 2-hour time zones?

 Posts 773
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Oschkar
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Joined: Nov 19 2011, 01:07 AM
Not necessarily. Probably, the beginning of the work day at the edges of the time zones would be variable, with some businesses opening at 800, others at 900, and yet others at intermediate times like 860 or 840.

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
A reasonable point. Not all businesses open at the same time now in the same time zone or in the same city. How this might work with no time zones and how a person might understand time are still difficult to predict.

It's still necessary to specify how often the clock will rotate or the colors will shift with regard to longitude. I don't know, although I'm interested in the ten-minute (d&#124;2.5°) and continuous options.

Obsessive poster
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM
I think I could add this to UncialClockDeluxe as another mode for the Diurnal clockface. It would simply show Greenwich time always, but use the local time zone setting to determine the background sky color, and to tilt the noon-to-midnight color gradient in the central dial to one of two dozen semi-unciaturn angles for the two-dozen possible semi-dwell time zones ... actually there are a small number of quarter-dwell time zones too, so in theory I should accommodate four dozen possible quarter-unciaturn angles.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)

 Posts 190
Regular
sunny
Regular
Joined: Jun 30 2013, 08:58 AM
Kodegadulo @ Mar 12 2017, 01:52 AM wrote: I think I could add this to UncialClockDeluxe as another mode for the Diurnal clockface. It would simply show Greenwich time always, but use the local time zone setting to determine the background sky color, and to tilt the noon-to-midnight color gradient in the central dial to one of two dozen semi-unciaturn angles for the two-dozen possible semi-dwell time zones ... actually there are a small number of quarter-dwell time zones too, so in theory I should accommodate four dozen possible quarter-unciaturn angles.
Hi Kode,

I suggest keeping noon up and midnight down (which would be a self explanatory case against the gradient), the clock could always show the same 'Greenwich time' regardless of the location, this could be achieved by rotating the 'numerals' that depends on the location, you could go for the fixed integer of biciaturn or unciaturn setting in the background which i think you got that Paul's suggestion already mentioned earlier. This can be achieved by rotating the background at a certain angle that depends on the longitude in such a way that the small hand always follows the sun for that particular longitude.

Another similar option would be is to have the continuous rotating clock face, like THIS (a YouTube Video), i.e, instead of a fixed background as in earlier case, this can have a fixed 'duor hand' that depends on the location and a continuous rotating background where '0' would always point roughly towards the sun at all times for any location, that 'equivalent brown fixed' hand would still show the same time all over the world though.

Regarding a better location than Greenwich, why don't you prefer 'FMT' as it is less Anglo-centric and more Euro-centric, but which shows a good representation of the globe? The equivalent time zone offset could be 11.25x4 =+45 minutes added to Greenwich. Another option is the true antipode of a meridian in the pacific passing through a least land, which may be 11.564 degrees east (that passes roughly through Munich) although that offset of 11.564 ~ 46 minutes and 15 seconds won't matter much, but i prefer it better.

In any case, rotating clock background or rotating hands, that both track the sun, I don't find any attachment towards quarter duors or semi duors you preferred as they are not any direct dozenal unit for Diurnal time. I would rather prefer whole integers of any unciaday or biciaday in that regard.

Is any of such a good option or am I not heading in the right direction? Any more possibilities/suggestions/options for such clock that shows the same 'Universal Time' everywhere?

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
We are beginning work on three versions of a world clock with no time zones. There will be occasional progress reports and possibly questions.

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
Make that six versions at least. Three dozenal and three in the traditional clock format, in decimal notation, semidiurnal, hr-min-sec, the whole sexagesimal bit. The world clock is such an odd idea that people may need to look at it with reference to a familiar clock instead of jumping in with dozenal thrown at them at the same time, even though dozenal diurnal makes the concept easier.

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
The Georgia state capitol, in Atlanta, is at longitude d&#124;-84.38781. To use a universal timezoneless clock in Atlanta, you read UTC and have to know when nominal midnight there is, as the subtracted offset from UTC. Using time bands of an hour (z&#124;0.060 or half a dwell of the Earth’s surface), the offset is z&#124;300, i.e. 6 hours. Using bands of z&#124;0.10 (d&#124;10 minutes or z&#124;10 trices), the offset is z&#124;2X0, i.e. 5 hours d&#124;40 minutes.

At Atlanta’s latitude, the former allows places 863 miles apart to use the same offset; the latter means places 144 miles apart.

This may be seen easily on a real clock face. Pix on request. (The dozenal universal clock faces are under development, and close to being finished.)

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
Below are four clocks illustrating UTC time with offsets for the AMA Conference Center in Atlanta. There’s much to explain; only essentials are given here. The time band width is 10z trices. Midnight in Atlanta is 2X0 UTC. 08:25 UTC is the time illustrated.

Clock 1: the simplest, with the usual dozenal hand movements.
Clock 2: the shortest hand follows the local sun if the top is considered south or the clock runs counterclockwise (possible) with north at the top.
Clock 3: the shortest hand is stationary and the face rotates.
Clock 4: also has the shortest hand stationary and the face rotating. The 0 follows the local sun if the top is considered north and the clock runs clockwise.

(The clocks run on two bases: midnight at Greenwich and noon at the International Date Line. Those two are the same but require a few differences in format.)

We’ll probably change the abbreviation of pentqua·lengthel to the one for dromal·length. There are also four traditional clocks (semi-diurnal, decimal/sexagesimal) showing the same mechanisms.
The clocks will go live soon, and a manual is in preparation. I hope people will try them out from their own co-ordinates (the API default), and substitute whichever others they wish.

Dozens Demigod
icarus
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Joined: Apr 11 2006, 12:29 PM
Paul these are incredible!

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
Thanks. There are also the traditional clocks, not posted yet.
As soon as I can get my programmer to fix a few calculation errors (a few among very many), we'll go live, and you may watch these things do their things.
(A nod here to Sunny in Bengaluru, who's been of notable help in this project.)

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
We now have six dozenal clocks, although that's really 48 with most of the options. I hope to upload the whole project to a website by the end of the coming weekend.
It's been a wild ride, with results I doubt anyone would have predicted.

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
What became a joint project in dozenal with Sunny is now live. Clocks, lots of clocks, turning this way and that. In another life I'd have called them prime, inversion, retrograde, and retrograde inversion. There are reasons for all those.

For you 'n' me, it's UTC. Lousy slogan. I'm not sure UTC is a lot better than time zones, although it does seem somewhat better. What are needed are people playing with these clocks and the very many user choices that go with them.

Dozenal is the default. Traditional (decimal/sexagesimal) is a heavy option, not the best, but the way into this for many people.

An introductory manual is here. I plan to write more about the issues, with examples etc.

Obsessive poster
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM
Hi Paul, cool stuff. I'm currently working through your manual in an effort to digest what you've accomplished. I notice that the PDF at https://dozenal.ae-web.ca/pdf/universal-clocks.pdf seems to have a couple of links on page (judging from the blue underscore text), that don't seem to work. Can you make sure to spell those out in full?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)

wendy.krieger
wendy.krieger
I'm not a fan of a universal time zone. The swatch used a decimal system pretty much as intended here, did not go well.

You see, if you take here as 'true time', than california's working day would run from 000 to 460, and the UK would run from 760 to 000. Anywhere in between these places would have their working day split over the day change.

You would use a series of westings, with 000 on the dateline. Brisbane is E10, gives a time zone of E00. So the time here as E25, would make the meridian time as 025, (by subtracting E00.)

But you would suppose that wherever in the world you are, people go to work by 400 or 460, (ie 8 or 9 am), and work to say 5p = 860. If you were to suppose they started at midnight (like CA), and work to 8 am then it would be rather strange.

The best one could do is to have local and zulu time side by side.

 Posts 615
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Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
The pdf is fixed. We may add more clocks and do a few other things, although what's there now seems to work, with one tiny odd calculation we'll also fix, although chances are no one will find it…

The biggest problem with UTC is indeed the change of date in different parts of the day as the sun goes. How much a problem that is remains to be seen; I don't want to evaluate it without trials in several places. Still, changing the date everywhere at the same time would mean the International Date Line wouldn't have to be redrawn to go around certain lands.

I draw attention to the concept of time bands, which do not have to be (and in my view should not be) 6 breathers/1 hour. Some of the smallest time bands seem absurd but are there to see what may be made of them. They may require different thinking.

The most fun may be the Continuous mode, where moving a very short distance (e.g. 11.132 metres/36.52 feet at the equator, less elsewhere) may change the dozenal offset in its last digit. Although that degree of precision can't be accurate, it may end up being useful somehow.

Certainly the current system has led to strange results, such as a time zone of +13.75; and Adelaide, Australia, well west of Brisbane, being behind it in part of the year and ahead of it in the other part. As long as we have 1-hour time zones, fiddling with the borders is a given, regardless of DST.

China needs 5 zones but uses only 1. That might be instructive for a look at UTC over a large area, although resentment over the imposition of Beijing time might complicate it.

wendy.krieger
wendy.krieger
Australia goes into both the tropics and temporate zone. Miami in Qld is about the same lattitude as the one in Florida, and nearly all of the USA is more to the pole tha Australia. In summer, we have five time zones: Sydney (DST), Adelade (DST), Brisbane, Darwin, and Perth (DST).

MLT (mean local time = MT + Westing), is useful where one is doing navigation or geodesics. This is because you can match mean local time to UTC and get longitude. You can do pretty much the same with siderial time, time of year and solar time too.

But Railway time replaced MLT during the 19th C, where a two-hour journey from London to Bristol would give something like a 6-minute time lag. The Railway time eventually replaced localtime whenever the railways came. Other businesses that operate over large areas benefit too.

While something like UTC would eliminate the date line, for much of the world, it means that the day changes during the working morning. Here in Brisbane, the new UTC day begins at 10.00 am, so we would go to work at 22.00 Thu, and work to 06.00 Fri, as a normal work day. The international date line causes less problems than this.

Alternately, there is the 28-hour day would eliminate all problems, because the resulting six-day week of 28 hours, would mean that the rising of the sun moves through the week, and you pretty much get something like somewhere someone's going to work in the hot afternoon etc.

I used to work on the state level of the national payroll, and thus we would have to get our request to runs in by our close. But because central office is dealing with multiple regions, we get staggered closes as Perth is 2 hours behind us.

In adelaide, I noticed that business tended to loose various connections as the head offices logged off at 5pm, so they would loose access at 4.30 p.

Interstate trains run on one or two times. For example, N1 and N2 (the Sydney Mail), runs on Sydney time, even in Brisbane. Step on the train and an hour forward, kind of thing.

Regards China.

I red a number of comments on Quora written by people who live in the far west, such as Yarkand. Although the clocks run to Peking times, the actual office times ran two or three hours later, due to the sun. So Opening at 8.0 in Peking, would be reflected by an opening at 10.0 or 11.0 further west.

Regarding India

India would straddle two time zones, but they can bring the whole country into one time zone by using a time zone in between them.

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
Alternately, there is the 28-hour day would eliminate all problems, because the resulting six-day week of 28 hours, would mean that the rising of the sun moves through the week, and you pretty much get something like somewhere someone's going to work in the hot afternoon etc.
That takes the problem and puts it elsewhere. People on a normal schedule would rise, work, eat, sleep, etc. at a different time every successive day. There's nothing necessary about a 120z-hour week; you may have 6-day weeks of 100z hours, if you want hours.
--------
In the current project we'll probably build Clocks 1b and 2b, and maybe another, and take away the more absurd speeds in a few places.

 Posts 190
Regular
sunny
Regular
Joined: Jun 30 2013, 08:58 AM
Once again, for those who didn't understand the mechanism and logic applied on the clocks can ask questions regarding it because afaik, this might be the only one or rare where such mechanism or logic is applied. And also for further improvements or possibilities of any such clocks (if) can be done, I would like to know: Any possibilities, with logical and helpful outcomes. The clocks are at https://dozenal.ae-web.ca/clock/universal

 Posts 615
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Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
The basic question I have is: can people do well with the date changing at another part of the day besides local midnight? It's often said that anyone on a night shift does that. They are still the exception, however, and I don't know of anything but anecdotes describing the problems that that may or may not create.

For almost everyone, the date changes when people are either asleep or not doing much. Where I am, with the Continuous band, the date would change at what is currently 18:40 standard time. Is that outside a tolerance range for most people in the industrialized world, at least? I suspect that any time is workable, subject to thinking that I haven't yet thought of. With how much difficulty, I don't know.

wendy.krieger
wendy.krieger
You can always try.

My brother runs his house on J-time (ie GMT+9), rather than local time (GMT + 10), for reasons to do with this was the proposed australia-wide time-zone at federation.

The whole thing about days etc, is that a good deal of commerce is meant to be contain to a day. Consider say a public holiday. It might start at 10 am local time, and run to 10 am the next day. Or 1 pm. It would be terribly disruptive.

I mean, if i went to london, or vancouver, I would sure hope their days are the same as ours, as price for the jet lag.

You could try something that is relatively easy, like imagine that the time is ten hours earlier. So if it's 3 pm local time, you would say it's 5 am, and 8:30 am is something like 10:30 pm. You would see how easy it's to be thrown out.

Even with largish time zones, like just four or six, put yourself at the edge of one of those and see how you like 3 hrs permanent daylight savings!! Or going to work at 10 am and working to 7 pm.

 Posts 615
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM
As for holidays, in one religion at least, they begin at sunset and end at sunset. No big problem. For commerce, a local day would still be a local day. Only the numbers would be different.

Large time zones make little sense to me. Time bands are not zones and may well be smaller than an hour, with more of them.

In travelling, the dates would be the same but the days wouldn't. May be feasible, who knows. I don't see any point in imagining anything in AM and PM, though. We have to get rid of them, because they're an obstruction to such an experiment. Dozenal time is of course better.

I'm still interested in how to try UTC. May an individual be able to do it well? Or does it take a widely spaced group? How would an experiment be set up?