## Uncial?

 Posts 817
Dozens Disciple
m1n1f1g
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Feb 20 2011, 10:15 AM
Enigma @ Dec 31 2011, 06:15 PM wrote: I use 'dozenal'. "Uncial" means nothing to me.
Neither did it to most of us before Ruthe (I think) introduced it to us. I don't think it has to mean anything to people, but it of course helps that we can create another validation (and indeed a firm one) of our base. It also gives a starting point for the SDN, which people would probably see first. You can also link it back to the inch, which people know as a division of the foot into twelve.

I only use "uncial" for dozenal digital fractions, and I use "dozenal" for both integers and the base as a whole.
A few little conventions:
- Dozenal integers suffixed with prime (&#8242;). This is the uncial point.
- Decimal integers suffixed with middle dot (·). This is the decimal point.

You may see me use * prefix for messages before 11&#400;7-03-1X, and a whole range of similar radix points. I will often use X and &#400; for and .

Sometimes, I will imply that an integer is in dozenal, so I won't add any marks to it. You should be able to tell that "10 = 22 * 3" is in dozenal.

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Joshbuckler
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Joined: Jun 18 2009, 04:48 PM
m1n1f1g @ Dec 31 2011, 08:18 PM wrote: I only use "uncial" for dozenal digital fractions, and I use "dozenal" for both integers and the base as a whole.
I like that usage. It feels lived-in, comfortable. And it fills the need for the dozenal equivalent of things like

decimal multiplication (as opposed to fractional multiplication) = uncial multiplication
decimal point = uncial point
etc.

Dozens Demigod
dgoodmaniii
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Joined: May 21 2009, 01:45 PM
Joshbuckler @ Jan 19 2012, 10:04 AM wrote:
m1n1f1g @ Dec 31 2011, 08:18 PM wrote: I only use "uncial" for dozenal digital fractions, and I use "dozenal" for both integers and the base as a whole.
I like that usage. It feels lived-in, comfortable. And it fills the need for the dozenal equivalent of things like

decimal multiplication (as opposed to fractional multiplication) = uncial multiplication
decimal point = uncial point
etc.
This has developed into my usage, as well. It just feels right to me, in some strange, non-quantifiable way.
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use or X; for elv, I use or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
TGM for the win!

Dozens Disciple
Dan
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Joined: Aug 8 2005, 02:45 PM
@Kodegadulo: Why does a medieval script need a Euro sign?

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Ruthe
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icarus @ Sep 13 2011, 03:06 AM wrote: I think when Romans used the root of "uncial", they were referring to "twelfths" and not twelves, not that this makes too much a difference.
Sorry if this is so long after your post, but I felt the need to elucidate the common usage of uncial and decimal in relation to their Latin roots.

Your statement implies the base ten system called 'decimal' is based on the meaning of the Latin/Roman word meaning 'ten', whereas 'uncial' is is based on a word that means not twelve but 'one twelfth'. However, the word 'decimal' is derived from the Latin/Roman word 'decima' which itself meant 'one tenth' and not 'ten'.

Therefor the word 'uncial' is the direct base twelve analogue of the base ten word 'decimal'.

Somewhere on this board is a post in which I first suggested "uncial" as the name for a base twelve number system, but after doing so found an early article in issue 2, Vol 1 - No 2, June 1945 of "The Duodecimal Bulletin", on the DSA website, starting on page 9 and titled "Uncial Jottings of a Harried Infantryman" by Willianm S. Crosby, that predated my suggestion by more than 67 years.
Why a Roman pocket abacus? They used dozenal fractions as their main form of fractions, 12 inches per foot & originally 12 oz per pound (inch=ounce=uncia=1/12). Columns 1 & 2 of the abacus are for dozenal fractions, column two for twelfths and column one, dozenal fractions of a twelfth. Columns 3 through 8 provided a decimal place value system with values from 1s to millions where each lower bead counts as 1 & the upper beads count 5 of a column's base 10 power, Is, Vs, Xs, Ls, Cs ,Ds, Ms etc.

Dozens Demigod
icarus
Dozens Demigod
Joined: Apr 11 2006, 12:29 PM
Ruthe you are absolutely right. Sticklers for Latin correctitude will suggest all the base names actually end in -ary:

Octonary vs. octal, denary vs. decimal, duodenary vs. duodecimal, sexadenary vs. hexadecimal, etc.

Problem is we are not speaking Latin when we are referring to bases in English (not that you are suggesting that we be correct in our Latin pronouncements; you're saying that uncial and decimal both refer to the numbers 12 and 10 as denominators). "Unfortunately" the English usage settled on these "incorrect" forms.

I don't think there's anything wrong with calling dozenal "uncial". It's a concise word with a strong historical tie to twelvefoldness. So strange, that a concept like twelvefoldness has different methods of naming the concept. What about sixteenfoldness or ninefoldness? It's hard to deny the strength of 12 as a basis of dividing a unit.

 Posts 775
Dozens Disciple
Oschkar
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Nov 19 2011, 01:07 AM
icarus @ Nov 17 2012, 02:52 AM wrote: sexadenary
I think this should be "sedenary". Latin had no single word in this form for sixteen, but used "seni deni", basically "six each ten each"; however, the word for the number sixteen itself is "sedecim", and a regular derivation would be "sedeni". I'm not aware of any sexa- prefix outside of words for sixty.

Also, "once, doce, trece, catorce, quince, sece, setence, ochoce, novence, veinte."

Dozens Demigod
dgoodmaniii
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Joined: May 21 2009, 01:45 PM
Interestingly, Crosby also stated that he considered the term "dozenal", since then become the clear standard, beneath contempt.
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use or X; for elv, I use or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
TGM for the win!

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Ruthe
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icarus @ Sep 13 2011, 03:06 AM wrote:M1n1f1g,

Your thoughts echo Paul van Buskirk's in 1953 (Duodecimal Bulletin 0910E See page E;). Henry Clarence Churchman, a stalwart of the first generation of the DSA, was fond of "uncial". I think when Romans used the root of "uncial", they were referring to "twelfths" and not twelves, not that this makes too much a difference.
I have to point out that 'decimal' comes from the Roman word 'decima' which itself does NOT mean ten but one tenth. The Latin for ten was 'decem'. So any argument against 'uncial' as the better name for base twelve because it comes from a word for one twelfth also argues against the use of 'decimal' for tens since it too comes from the Latin for one tenth!
Why a Roman pocket abacus? They used dozenal fractions as their main form of fractions, 12 inches per foot & originally 12 oz per pound (inch=ounce=uncia=1/12). Columns 1 & 2 of the abacus are for dozenal fractions, column two for twelfths and column one, dozenal fractions of a twelfth. Columns 3 through 8 provided a decimal place value system with values from 1s to millions where each lower bead counts as 1 & the upper beads count 5 of a column's base 10 power, Is, Vs, Xs, Ls, Cs ,Ds, Ms etc.

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Einmaleins
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Joined: Feb 12 2018, 06:58 AM
The word uncial does not mean anything to me.
I see there is a connecton to 'Unze' (ounce), but that is an old word.
We say "Zwölfersystem” (twelve-system).

Obsessive poster
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM
Einmaleins @ Feb 25 2018, 07:45 AM wrote: The word uncial does not mean anything to me.
I see there is a connecton to 'Unze' (ounce), but that is an old word.
We say "Zwölfersystem” (twelve-system).
See uncia entry in wiktionary. Latin for one-twelfth. Origin of not only English inch and ounce, but also German Unze. English, being a hybrid Germanic/Romance language, has an affinity for such words. The adjectival form uncial is a straightforward derivative.

German seems to have the word Dezimal, derived from the same source as English decimal, and doesn't seem to eschew it in favor of something like *Zehnersystem. So what would be wrong with Unzial, perhaps?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)

Dozens Demigod
Double sharp
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Joined: Sep 19 2015, 11:02 AM
German Wikipedia gives Dezimalsystem as primary, but lists Zehnersystem as an alternative, as well as the same for Duodezimalsystem vs. Zwölfersystem. As for a hypothetical Unzialsystem, I would guess that it looks alien precisely because Unze is an old word and is not as familiar as ounce is to (even metricated) English-speakers at present.

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Einmaleins
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Joined: Feb 12 2018, 06:58 AM
Kodegadulo @ Feb 26 2018, 03:18 AM wrote: See uncia entry in wiktionary.&nbsp; Latin for one-twelfth.&nbsp; Origin of not only English inch and ounce, but also German Unze.&nbsp; English, being a hybrid Germanic/Romance language, has an affinity for such words. The adjectival form uncial is a straightforward derivative.
Yes, I have looked through the entries in Wiki before you have so kindly pointed them out to me. The word unzial in German is most commonly understood to be a printing typestyle; German wiki also notes that a rare use of unzial nowadays would be "Of or relating to an ounce, or an inch, especially to letters printed an inch high.
But since you quote wiki to prove your point that unzial would work in German let me add these other pieces from the German wiki:
"Die Unziale entstand im 4. Jahrhundert und wurde bis zum 6. Jahrhundert für Bücher (Codices) und darüber hinaus als Auszeichnungsschrift verwendet. Den Namen Unziale hat Jean Mabillon im 17. Jahrhundert eingeführt, indem er wohl eine Briefstelle bei Hieronymus missverstanden hat, in der dieser über die „zollgroßen“ (lat. uncia, ein zwölftel Fuß, 1 Zoll) Buchstaben klagt.
The Unziale originated in the 4th century and was used until the 6th century for books ( Codices ) and beyond as a markup . Jean Mabillon introduced the name Unziale in the 17th century, probably misinterpreting a letter from Hieronymus in which he complains of the " inch- sized" (lat. Uncia , one-twelfth-foot, 1- inch ) letter."
and
"uncial
(rare) Of or relating to an ounce, or an inch, especially to letters printed an inch high.
Of or relating to uncial, a majuscule style of writing with unjoined, rounded letters, originally used in the 4th–9th centuries.
uncial (plural uncials)
A style of writing using uncial letters.
A letter in this style.
A manuscript in this style."
And unzial would be understood (if at all) as a print style not as a twelfth in German by the man in the street; we are not all scholars.
But to show the definition is available here is one other quote with the definition from the origin:
" Daraus entstand die Unziale, mit der die ersten gebundenen Bücher im 6. Jahrhundert geschrieben wurden. Uncia bedeutete ursprünglich ein Zwölftel, daher kommen Inch (1/12 Fuß) und die Unze, damals 1/12 römisches Pfund.
From this rose the Unziale, with which the first bound books were written during the sixth century AD.
Uuncia meant originally a twelfth, from which come inch (1/12 foot) and the ounce, then 1/12 roman pound."
I do not think Unzial will do. But, to be fair to you and your preferred ideas I will discuss the point with those of my fellow workers who are German origin (many others today are not).

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Einmaleins
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Joined: Feb 12 2018, 06:58 AM
Double sharp @ Feb 26 2018, 06:46 AM wrote:German Wikipedia gives Dezimalsystem as primary, but lists Zehnersystem as an alternative, as well as the same for Duodezimalsystem vs. Zwölfersystem. As for a hypothetical Unzialsystem, I would guess that it looks alien precisely because Unze is an old word and is not as familiar as ounce is to (even metricated) English-speakers at present.
You are correct. "Dezimalsystem" is more common than "Zehnersystem" for most people. And, as I have explained (I hope) to Kodagulo, Unze is a very old word now and not in common use, as are older units such as klafter and lot. There are people interestde in old units writing on the web and you can find some German and Audtrian ones; but this does not mean the words are still understood by all.

Obsessive poster
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM
The situation with "uncial" is identical in English. It's an old word currently more associated with a form of typescript. But within dozenal circles it's been reconstructed as a possible synonym for "dozenal" itself. The suggestion dates at least as far back as Crosby's letter to the Duodecimal Bulletin more than 6 dozen years ago. As has been mentioned, "uncial" is unique in being a word for "dozenal" that does not rest on a decimal etymology. Even "dozen" ultimately derives from duo-decem, while "twelve" (and Zwölf) derive from a phrase meaning "two left (after taking away ten)". We know this usage of "uncial" is not mainstream ... But a lot of what we do here is not mainstream.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)

wendy.krieger
wendy.krieger
Uncial also means a caseless font.  The celtic uncial font did not make use of special forms of the letter for upper case.

I was talking to some person who was trying to make a Tamil keyboard.  You see his name on my Wikipedia user page.  He was going to use an 'uncial' or caseless approach.  I suggested prehaps some kind of punctuation to make capitals, such as writing £krieger, where £ capitalise the initial letter.

Uncial in the sense of twelve-wise, reflects the roman division-base.  The romans made use of weights and a few measures to make fractions.  The 'nail', 'nagel' and 'clove' are a sixteenth of a larger measure, since sixteen fingernales (claw, clavis) make an as (one) or foot.

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Ruthe
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Joined: Feb 27 2006, 09:23 PM
I and probably Crosby both suggest uncial as an appropriate name for a base twelve system for two main reasons. First, it is directly analogous to the the word decimal for a base ten system from the Roman root decima meaning one tenth, and uncia the Roman word for one twelfth. That then leads to the second argument for its use as a word that has no connection to names for a base twelve system that depend on a derivation from base ten words for a base twelve system such as (twelve Zwölf) both meaning two left and (duodecimal Duodezimalsystem or Zwölfersystem) and (dozen Dutzend) both of which with the French douzaine from douze are derivations of duo-decimal.

As for the counter argument that uncial is a derivation an old Latin word uncia that is not known by the general public in English, German or French is no less relevant when applied to the word decimal from the antiquated Roman word decima. Old does not mean redundant or inappropriate! Otherwise more than half our languages would be relegated to the the dustbin. Where would we be without tele-phone, tele-vision, micro-scope, ion-ize etc etc etc .........
Why a Roman pocket abacus? They used dozenal fractions as their main form of fractions, 12 inches per foot & originally 12 oz per pound (inch=ounce=uncia=1/12). Columns 1 & 2 of the abacus are for dozenal fractions, column two for twelfths and column one, dozenal fractions of a twelfth. Columns 3 through 8 provided a decimal place value system with values from 1s to millions where each lower bead counts as 1 & the upper beads count 5 of a column's base 10 power, Is, Vs, Xs, Ls, Cs ,Ds, Ms etc.

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richard.chasen
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icarus wrote: M1n1f1g,

Your thoughts echo Paul van Buskirk's in 1953 (Duodecimal Bulletin 0910E See page E;). Henry Clarence Churchman, a stalwart of the first generation of the DSA, was fond of "uncial". I think when Romans used the root of "uncial", they were referring to "twelfths" and not twelves, not that this makes too much a difference. Anyway your brilliant thoughts have deep provenance among American dozenalists. So is it "OON-chee-all" (as my Italian tongue would render it) or "UHN-shull" (as my Midwestern mind would conceive it) or "UHN-see-ull"? In Rome, at least early on, it might have been "OON-kee-all". Curiously, my own conlang word for "twelve", ñiça', is pronounced "NEE-khang", so possibly subconsciously derived from uncial? (nope, it comes from ana' = "one" and -iça' = "first power of twelve". I think. Was one dozen one when I made it and now that was two dozen four years ago.)
I actually use unical (1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, etc in my astrology and biorhythm practice. I find number systems based in twelve much easier to use than systems based in tens. This is why I "invented" dozenal arithmetic in 1995. In 2016 I learned about this group's existence and that I'm not the only dozenist in existence.

Concerning my observations of cycles and number. Multiplying and dividing a cycle by a number have exactly the same effect.