Kodegadulo
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 19 2013, 03:15 AM #25

I made a slight notational change to all the previous posts: Previously, when I'd combine an SDN prefix with a Primel unit name or abbreviation, I'd keep the prime (′) on the unit name so it would wind up between the SDN prefix and the unit. But now I've moved it to the beginning, so there's no break between prefix and unit.

So for instance, instead of quadqua′workel or triqua′timel or hexqua′lengthel, now I have ′quadquaworkel, ′triquatimel, ′hexqualengthel.

The idea is that scaled-up Quantitel unit names ought to be just as generic and universal as their base unit names. You can have a Primel uncialengthel, a Phasic uncialengthel, and even a Pendlebury uncialengthel (otherwise known as the unciaGrafut or "gravinch"). So it's clear that the disambiguating adjectives "Primel", "Phasic" and "Pendlebury" ought to precede such words, not be embedded in them.

As I described before, reducing the adjective "Primel" to a single prime (′) leaves its pronunciation open to interpretation. You can pronounce it "Primel", or "prime", or not at all, as appropriate. For instance, in a work where the Primel metrology is presumed and is used exclusively, the prime can be left silent.

(Thank heaven for Posix regular expressions and the replace feature in Notepad++. Actually, thank Don Ho et al on the Notepad++ team... 🙂 )
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 21 2013, 05:06 PM #26

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Kodegadulo
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Dec 25 2013, 06:51 AM #27

I decided my reply to [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=1098&view=findpost&p=22112654]this post[/url] belonged in this thread: [quote="wendy.krieger @ Dec 24 2013, 08:07 AM"]Basically the COF is similar to the primel system, except we use real words for the unit-names, and avoid power-prefixes completely.[/quote] In Primel, we have both: We've got the base units, dozenal scalings of them with power-prefixes, numerous auxiliary units in the style of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesures_usuelles][i]Mesures Usuelles[/i][/url], and we've got colloquial names for many of these. So the only real difference is the use of Quantitels and power prefixes to provide many units with default names. [quote]Instead, we use ordinary units (like 'foot', 'yard', 'mile'), and associate these with dozenal numbers (30, 60, 1D5).  For the most part, people speak in things like 'miles per hour', and 'therms per hour', and 'horsepower', but these units have a number, which is their size in the COF standard...These numbers are supprisingly easy to calculate in, and you divide out by the answer[/quote] So you have some base units and a whole bunch of auxiliary units that are simple powers of your base units or simple whole number multiples of powers, approximating some common customary and/or SI units; and you can translate your auxiliary units into the equivalent quantities of your base units, expressed in scientific notation; and then you can do dimensional analysis and multiply and divide those quantities appropriately, taking care to multiply/divide mantissas and add/subtract exponents ... So how is that different from what anyone would do in any metrology? How do you associate your auxiliary units with their equivalent quantities of base units? You don't embed those numbers into the names of your units using SDN prefixes or anything similar. So you just have the numbers written down somewhere for reference, or you have many of them memorized, or something. Of course these quantities are going to be easy to calculate in. You're picking nice round-number approximations for customary measures, simple whole number multiples of powers of your base units. [quote]So a 'mile' is 1D5,[/quote] In other words, your "mile" is z[10[sup]5[/sup]] times your lengthel, i.e., it's your pentqualengthel. And your lengthel is ... the corn? Hmm. The corn sounds like it's the same as the Primel ′lengthel a.k.a. the ′line. And your "mile" sounds like the ′pentqualengthel (z[10[sup]5[/sup]) ′lengthels) a.k.a. the ′trekel, which is almost exactly 2 km, or a longish mile. [quote]an hour is 1D5,[/quote] Is your timel the same as the ′timel a.k.a. the hexciaday a.k.a. the ′jiffy? If so, then your "hour" sounds the same as the ′pentquatimel a.k.a. the unciaday a.k.a. the bihour a.k.a. the ′whiling. So ... did you decide to call the unciaday an "hour" even though it's twice the length of the traditional hour? I suppose you can get away with that if you use "hour" in the sense it had many centuries ago, when it meant a more vague period of time, or time of day. But in its modern sense it means a very specific amount of time. Or is your timel half a hexicaday? Is this the "fecc" in "corn-obol-fecc"? And what does "fecc" mean? [quote]In COF, a hand (4 in = 10 C), is very near a decimetre,[/quote] This sounds like the the ′unqualengthel (z[10] ′lengthels) a.k.a the ′unqualine a.k.a. the ′hand, which is close to 4 inches or 1 decimeter or 1 customary hand. Your "foot" sounds like the ′trina-unqualengthel (z[30] ′lengthels) a.k.a. the ′foot. Your "yard" sounds like ... well it ought to be z[90] rather than z[60] corns, but it sounds like the ′ennea-unqualengthel (z[90] ′lengthels) a.k.a the ′yard ... unless your "yard" is actually z[100] corns, but that would be a ′biqualenthel, which I nickname the ′ell, because it's closer to a customary ell than to a yard. I think users of Primel will not bother much with the ′foot and ′yard, in favor of the ′hand and ′ell, since those are round powers of the ′lengthel. [quote]... and a decimetre of water ...[/quote] This sounds like the ′triquavolumel (z[1000] ′volumels) a.k.a. the ′handvol (cubic ′hand), which is close to a liter or a quart. [quote]... makes a kilogram.[/quote] This sounds like the ′triquamassel (z[1000] ′massels) a.k.a. the ′handmass, which is close to a kilogram or 2 pounds. [quote]You have a cup at 300 cc (250 ml), divided into 40 teaspoons at 9 cc.  (5 ml).[/quote] See the ′cupvol and ′sipvol in this table from a previous post: [quote="Kodegadulo @ Apr 21 2013, 11:24 PM"][/quote] [quote]So you get things like pound (600 o,),[/quote] See the ′pintmass in this table from a previous post: [quote="Kodegadulo @ Dec 15 2013, 06:05 AM"][/quote] But I figure Primel users will mostly just use the ′handmass the same way SI users use the kilogram, and the ′pintmass wouldn't be very important. [quote]and ton (6D5 obols).[/quote] The ′hexquamassel (z[10[sup]6[/sup]] ′massels), a.k.a. the ′ellmass (mass of cubic ′ell of water), is about d[1.652] metric tonnes. Half an ′ellmass (6 ′pentquamassels) is about d[0.826] tonnes. Kind of a mediocre fit for a tonne -- 7 ′pentquamassels would have been a better fit. But I figure Primel users will just use the ′ellmass in the role of a "ton-like" unit. [quote]a therm is a pound 6D2 * a degree 1D4 = 6D6,[/quote] Your "degree" sounds like the ′quadquathermel (z[10[sup]4[/sup]] ′thermels). I haven't decided on a colloquial name for the ′quadquathermel yet. I'm not sure I'd want to call it a ′degree. "Degree" is too overloaded a term (angle? temperature?) and "thermel" is the Quantitel for temperature ("temperaturel" was just too awkward). Maybe the ′quadquathermel could be called a ′quarmel. Not sure what your "therm" is. Hmm, let's see... it must be the amount of heat (energy) needed to raise 1 ′pintmass of water by 1 ′quarmel. The specific thermal capacity of water is about 1 ′specithermacitel = 1 ′workel / ′thermel / ′massel, so your "therm" comes out to half a ′septquaworkel (z[6×10[sup]6[/sup]] ′workels a.k.a. z[600] ′handworks) or approx d[800] joules. Sounds like an analog for the British Thermal Unit, but scaled to the fact that the ′quarmel is only d[0.72] °F [quote] and a horsepower is 2D5.  [/quote] So this is 2 ′pentquapowerels (z[2×10[sup]5[/sup] ′powerels, a.k.a. z[200] ′handpowers a.k.a. z[0.2] ′ellpowers). I did identify the ′pentquapowerel as approximately half a horsepower, but didn't identify a ′horsepower as an auxiliary unit, though I suppose I could. But I figure Primel users will just use the ′ellpower to measure for instance automobile engine power. For example, z[40] ′ellpower is about d[300] horsepower [quote]Atmospheric pressure is 890 cw (corns of water).  Since 10; cw is roughly 10. Pa, you can quickly convert pressure of say, 1000 hPa by moving the radix 1 left (100.0), and dozenalising that (84;0). You need to add 1 for each 20; for greater accuracy, so you get something closer for 880.[/quote] Your "corn of water" seems to be the same as the ′pressurel, a.k.a. the ′linepressure. And I defined an ′atmosphel of z[890] ′pressurels too. [quote]  890 corns of water is the same as 2E (d35) feet of water,[/quote] Your "foot of water" seems to be the same as the TGM Prem. I suppose if we have a ′foot, then we could have a ′footpressure too. I also identified the ′handpressure, which I guess you'd call the "hand of water". An ′atmosphel would be z[89] ′handpressures. [quote]or 8;9 yards of water.[/quote] You must not mean a "yard" of z[90] corn, you must actually mean an ′ell of z[100] ′lengthels, because an ′atmosphel would be z[8.9] ′ellpressures. ---- So it appears that you and I have been independently treading down the same path. Well, anybody with a calculator and a basic knowledge of physics could work out this system. In a way, it's kind of always existed, and is just waiting for someone to discover it.
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 25 2013, 07:35 AM #28

[quote="Kodegadulo @ Dec 25 2013, 06:51 AM"] Your "degree" sounds like the ′quadquathermel (z[10[sup]4[/sup]] ′thermels). I haven't decided on a colloquial name for the ′quadquathermel yet. I'm not sure I'd want to call it a ′degree. "Degree" is too overloaded a term (angle? temperature?) and "thermel" is the Quantitel for temperature ("temperaturel" was just too awkward). Maybe the ′quadquathermel could be called a ′quarmel. [/quote] Then again, TGM has the "bigree" (= biquaCalg) and "tregree" (= triquaCalg). (Heck, I helped coin the terms.) So I suppose Primel could have a [b]′quagree[/b] (=′quadquathermel ). Perhaps the symbol could be ′Q°.
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 25 2013, 07:54 AM #29

I quoting this whole post here in order to record it as part of the development of Primel.
Kodegadulo @ Dec 24 2013, 08:53 AM wrote:
dgoodmaniii @ Dec 24 2013, 04:53 AM wrote:
You picked the ′unquatimel, otherwise known as the ′twinkling, as your ☼timel. I think that's going to be too big because it's going to lead to too big a ☼lengthel.
But it doesn't, does it? I mean, he ends up with something a litlte more than a meter, not exactly prohibitively long.
Oh, it's a fine unit for human use, in fact I identify it as the ′ell, very close to a customary d[45]-inch ell. As an auxiliary unit scaled-up from a smaller lengthel, it's great (it's the ′biqualengthel in Primel). But it's awkward as a lengthel itself, because the effect of its relative largeness gets cubed to generate the volumel and then the massel.
The mass unit would be huge, but so is that in SI; the liter is deprecated, after all.
Yep, SI is officially in to the cubic meter as their volumel. But their massel isn't the tonne, it's still the kilogram. Although I understand there was a point where a meter-tonne-second system was being considered, but it never got off the ground.
And he solves that problem by introducing a factor of 10-3, which wouldn't be my choice, but it does work.
Yep, directly analogous to the SI situation. Sunny, this choice is not "wrong", it's a trade off. You get the units you want, and you get to call them your base units, but you lose some of that 1:1 correspondence among base units that TGM and Primel strive for.
Why? This is a fine unit of time, a long hundred minutes or a zandred trice:

1 ′pentquatimel = 1 unciaday = z[10-1] day = 2 hours

otherwise known as the "duor" or "bihour". I'm toying with coining the colloquial name "1 whiling" for one of these (as in "whiling away a couple hours").
Sunny is definitely not the first one to think that this time period is rather long; that is, it doesn't really stand in well for the sorts of things we use the hour for. E.g., a good period of time for a class (or at least between breaks in a class), or for a speech, or for a sit-down friendly meal.

Not to say that we couldn't adjust to using half-duors when appropriate, the way we use half-hours for sitcoms and NBC Nightly News. (Some people still watch that, I understand.) But a duor is more of a large undertaking than an hour is; it's more a special outing. It's the difference between sitting down for an episode of $weekly_drama and making some popcorn for a full-length movie.

He's not crazy to think it's a bit long, in other words; and his decision to keep the time unit that governs most of our daily interactions is a sound one, even if not the only sound one.
There's nothing wrong with keeping the hour and half-hour (half-whiling and quarter-whiling) as useful auxiliary units, but I don't think that's what Sunny said he was doing. He said he was focusing on the biciaday (=decaminute=′block=☼block) as a more useful level of granularity to work with in keeping time than the unciaday. I would have gone one digit further and said that the triciaday (=′trice) is an even better level of granularity. As Sunny points out, it's a nice analog for the minute. A zandred ′trice equal a long-hundred minutes. d[10] minutes equal z[10] ′trice. A half-hour of d[30] minutes is a ′quarter-whiling of z[30] ′trice . An hour of d[60] minutes is a ′half-whiling of z[60] ′trice. Even when you cut the block in half, there's a nice equivalence between a half-dozen ′trice and a half-ten minutes.

(In fact, that Dozenal Clock scales its digital read-out in ′trice.)
[in TGM] ... the unit of current blends pretty well with the ampere ...
... yes, at about half an ampere, it does that. And at about a third of an ampere, the ′currentel does too! But neither TGM nor Primel can really make much out of that. The way Ampere's force law works, you're really picking a number from thin air. The whole point is that you select an arbitrary amount of force in order to get a currentel that is "conveniently sized" (and preferably to get all the related units to be "conveniently sized" too). SI picked a round power of ten, TGM and Primel picked (different) round powers of dozen. But there is no physical imperative that dictates what that particular value must be.
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wendy.krieger
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Dec 25 2013, 08:56 AM #30

The idea that a unit, like 'foot', might also be written as '30', and calculated as such, is something that people are not doing much of. Using prefix-constructions is considered silly, i largely avoid them if i can.

COF (barleycorn - obol - fecc), is to be seen as a CGS-like system, but it does not produce the large numbers found in the CGS. This is because the fecc is 1/34.56 = 0;0148 decimal seconds.

The COF is designed in the same way as the TGM and sunny's system, but the additional unit we selected was velocity. C-corn is 1/3 inch, or a barleycorn lengþ. O=obol is the greekish weight, at 5/9 grams. F = fecc (OE word for 'period of time', but their sense was like 5 years).

The unit of temperature corresponds to 1" on the therometer, where 100" make a minute, and 100 minutes make a degree. The size of the degree is such that z100 degrees makes d100 F, so it pretty much is line up with that: ice point is 40 F. Most common temperatures lie from 0 to 100 F. Also 10000 corns = 1 furlong.

But a Btu (lb.F) is a more human scale unit than 6D6 ergs, and a therm at 6DE (ie one ton of 1000; lb, by 100 F), is more in keeping with large energy consumption.

The erg per fecc is quite small, but the HP is close to 2D5. = 140 ft lb / s
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 26 2013, 01:01 AM #31

From [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=1101&view=findpost&p=22112709]wendy's C.O.F. thread[/url]: [quote="wendy.krieger @ Dec 25 2013, 11:57 AM"]When James Prescott Joule measured the mechanical equivalent of heat, he found a degree fahrenheit was 778 feet.  This is near a furlong, so it is useful to look at the furlong as the mechanical unit.[/quote] Hey, that's a pretty neat observation! Except that I'd be thinking in terms of ′stadiums rather than furlongs. That gives me a great idea for a colloquial name for the ′quadquathermel ... [quote]We put eg j/g = 4186.8 / 9.80665 = 426.934 metres.  A metre is nearly 121.795 corns, giving  1 kelvin = 52000 corns.  That is, it takes the same energy to heat M of water, as it does to lift it 52000 corns.  Dozenally, this is 26,000 nearly. To raise a mass of water by 10,000 corns (ie 1 F), we produce 0.4 K [/quote] Right, I got the ′thermel by finding out how much 1 ′workel would raise the temperature of 1 ′massel of water. But 1 ′workel is the energy needed to lift 1 ′massel by 1 ′lengthel in a 1 ′gravitel field. The result is very small: 1 ′thermel = d[0.4] quadciakelvin. To get it up to a useful size requires throwing in a factor of quadqua: 1 ′quadquathermel = d[0.4] kelvin. But we can equate that with raising the same 1 ′massel by 1 ′quadqualengthel = 1 ′stadium. So to give the ′quadqathermel a colloquial name, instead of doing something like ′quarmel or ′quagree, we could incorporate "stadium": Call it a [b]′staditherm[/b]. Perhaps the abbreviation could incorporate ( Ϛ ) Unicode Character 'GREEK LETTER STIGMA' (U+03DA): 1 ′staditherm = 1 ′. Here the capital theta for "therm" is raised to look something like a degree symbol. Thanks, Wendy!
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 26 2013, 01:31 AM #32

The idea that a unit, like 'foot', might also be written as '30', and calculated as such, is something that people are not doing much of.
This is just the idea of defining auxiliary units as equivalent amounts (sometimes expressed in scientific notation) of certain base units, and converting all quantities to the base units before doing computations, to simplify the calculations. It's nothing new, really. Your "numbers" aren't just "numbers" they are equivalent amounts of base units. For example 1 ′foot = z[30] ′lengthel. You seem to be taking some shortcuts by omitting the base units, and not showing the dimensional analysis, with units cancelling out and so forth.
Using prefix-constructions is considered silly
Oh? Says who? :) Power-prefixes get converted to scientific notation too, when the calculation needs to be done. But are you suggesting that everyone who uses prefixes like kilo- milli- centi- micro- , etc., when they talk about certain quantities at different scales, but don't happen to be working out a computation, is being silly?
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dgoodmaniii
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Dec 26 2013, 02:33 AM #33

wendy.krieger @ Dec 25 2013, 08:56 AM wrote: Using prefix-constructions is considered silly
By whom? Besides yourself, I mean. Given that this is something that most of the world does constantly in SI, and which is pretty common in TGM and similarly-constructed systems (like Primel, which in many ways is basically TGM starting with a different time unit), I think the burden is on the proponent in this case.

I mean, I'll grant you that it's not done much in customary-imperial, but even there it happens occasionally (icarus has remarked on the "kilopound" before). But that doesn't mean it's "considered silly," but only that it's not the custom in a particular set of systems.
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use :A or X; for elv, I use :B or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
TGM for the win!
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 26 2013, 02:38 AM #34

[quote="Kodegadulo @ Dec 26 2013, 01:01 AM"] From [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=1101&view=findpost&p=22112709]wendy's C.O.F. thread[/url]: [quote="wendy.krieger @ Dec 25 2013, 11:57 AM"]When James Prescott Joule measured the mechanical equivalent of heat, he found a degree fahrenheit was 778 feet.  This is near a furlong, so it is useful to look at the furlong as the mechanical unit.[/quote] Hey, that's a pretty neat observation! Except that I'd be thinking in terms of ′stadiums rather than furlongs. That gives me a great idea for a colloquial name for the ′quadquathermel ... [quote]We put eg j/g = 4186.8 / 9.80665 = 426.934 metres.  A metre is nearly 121.795 corns, giving  1 kelvin = 52000 corns.  That is, it takes the same energy to heat M of water, as it does to lift it 52000 corns.  Dozenally, this is 26,000 nearly. To raise a mass of water by 10,000 corns (ie 1 F), we produce 0.4 K [/quote] Right, I got the 1 ′foot = z[30] ′lengthel. zthermel by finding out how much 1 ′workel would raise the temperature of 1 ′massel of water. But 1 ′workel is the energy needed to lift 1 ′massel by 1 ′lengthel in a 1 ′gravitel field. The result is very small: 1 ′thermel = d[0.4] quadciakelvin. To get it up to a useful size requires throwing in a factor of quadqua: 1 ′quadquathermel = d[0.4] kelvin. But we can equate that with raising the same 1 ′massel by 1 ′quadqualengthel = 1 ′stadium. So to give the ′quadqathermel a colloquial name, instead of doing something like ′quarmel or ′quagree, we could incorporate "stadium": Call it a [b]′staditherm[/b]. Perhaps the abbreviation could incorporate ( Ϛ ) Unicode Character 'GREEK LETTER STIGMA' (U+03DA): 1 ′staditherm = 1 ′. Here the capital theta for "therm" is raised to look something like a degree symbol. Thanks, Wendy! [/quote] Note that Wendy seems to be using "furlong" both as a unit of length and a unit of temperature, based on the mechanical equivalence of heat. I don't think it's wise to confuse matters like this, just because there's an interesting relationship between quantities. I'm NOT going to say human body temperature is z[78.6] ′[i]stadiums[/i]. That's how high you'd have to lift a human body to increase its gravitational potential energy by the same amount as the energy needed to heat it from freezing to body temperature. That temperature is z[78.6] ′[i]staditherms[/i].
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wendy.krieger
wendy.krieger

Dec 26 2013, 07:44 AM #35

In the USA, one has both the survey chain of 66 feet, and the engineer's or ramden chain of 100 feet. A chain is a land measuring device, made of 100 links, each being roughly in the shape of a long rod with eyes in each end.

A rod is likewise a long pole or perch one can lug around and measure from end to end.

A furlong is simply a furrow-length, is a notional unit that is consistant with oxen draging a plough through a field. In practice, it is something in the order of 100 fathoms or 120 paces. Stade or stadium is translated as furlongs in the bible.

Unit variations are not unknown: the roman arpent of 120 ft square, becomes the french arpent, of ten perches by ten perches, where the perch is variously 18 feet in the towns, and 22 feet in the country.

When I use F to represent the COF thremm-unit, it is not intended to represent furlong, but an un-named unit which starts with F.

Discarding the unit-segment (and the dimensional analysis), is pretty common fare in the C.G.S. theory. The difference between the S.W.S. systems like the COF, TGM, and TIOF, is that a pound and a pound force are still the same number. So eg 600; for lb and lbf is correct, and 1D4 for F.
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 27 2013, 03:24 AM #36

As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
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wendy.krieger
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Dec 27 2013, 06:27 AM #37

Time for 0;016 day is a cé, as used in china in the far east.
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 27 2013, 06:53 AM #38

wendy.krieger @ Dec 27 2013, 06:27 AM wrote:Time for 0;016 day is a cé, as used in china in the far east.
This article on Chinese time units lists:
  • zi (字) = 5 minutes (6 ′trice)
  • (刻) = d[15] minutes (z[16] ′trice)
  • shíchén (時辰) = 2 hours (1 ′whiling); this supposedly translates as "watch"; apparently obsoleted
Not sure if I can fit any of this into an English-language metrology. But it's interesting that they used a division of the day into z[10].
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Tony
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Dec 27 2013, 08:01 AM #39

The traditional (but largely archaic) division of the day into a dozen parts is supposedly one of the reasons for the dozen-ray sun on the RoC's [Taiwan's] flag...

Numbers in my posts can be taken as dozenal, with the exception of italicized numbers which are decimal (unless otherwise specified).

Effective: 1E-08-11EX (23-08-2014)
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 27 2013, 06:02 PM #40

In reply to a post from the C.O.F. thread:
wendy.krieger @ Dec 27 2013, 08:18 AM wrote:The comment about Lotus spreadsheets is that regarding the day and the circle as a unit, allows one to use something like frac() function to drag off the time from a date-time sequence.  Unix gives a long count in seconds, and you can't simply look at that data to determine the date or time.
Excel also encodes the date as a day count since d[1900] (actually, since d[Dec 31, 1899], but who's counting? :) ) Time of day is encoded as a fractional day.

For me, one of the chief attractions of a pure dozenal division of the day is the ability to seamlessly transition from the scale of minutes (′trices, triciadays) and hours (′whilings ′dwells, unciadays), to the scale of days, by a simple shift of radix point, without any additional factors, not even a factor of 2. This was the goal of French Revolutionary decimal time. The goal itself wasn't wrong, just the choice to implement it in decimal.

With all due respect to Pendlebury and dgiii, I just don't buy the idea that it would be natural for astronomers to count off long periods of time in hours. After all, the daily rotation of the Earth is by definition a primary astronomical reality. The Julian day count is something that is used, so being able to directly perceive a fractional Julian day as a dozenal time of day would be a boon, in my opinion.

Now, I don't hold any illusions about supplanting the overwhelming cultural dominance of the hour or the two-dozen-hour day(or even sexagesimal time) any time soon. This is just a fun intellectual exercise, an opportunity for some imaginative wordsmithing. It's also an opportunity to practice breaking free of one's cultural conditioning to get a different perspective from an alternate reality.

For instance: TV entertainment these days comes in definite modular packages: half-hour, hour, ninety-minute, two-hour. That's pretty much the limit; longer programs are unusual. So I think there would be something satisfying about being able to fit any of these within a single sweep of a biciaday hand around a clock dial. The half-hour (quarter ′whiling quarter-′dwell) modules would come in the shape of quadrants, snapping together with the solidity of good old right angles, reinforcing the intuition that those should be the smallest increments of entertainment. The commercial breaks at the fifteen-minute (one-eighth ′whiling one-eighth ′dwell) marks would wind up at the awkward diagonals, reflecting things always being askew midway through a drama or comedy, to be given a resolution once time reaches a cardinal direction again. (Ships bells would sound at the cardinal points of the compass as well.) An hour-long (half ′whiling half ′dwell) show would give you a double quadrant's worth of time for a longer treatment; a pair of those, smooth semicircles, could fit back-to-back in a friendly way to fill out the schedule. A ninety-minute (nine dozen ′trice) afternoon special or fluffy Disney CGI feature, would only manage to go three-quarters around the dial, leaving an awkward void to be filled; such fare always feels like a lesser work anyway. Whereas a real movie, one worthy of breaking out the popcorn, would go the full way around an unciaday. When a Peter Jackson epic set in Middle Earth extends way beyond that, you really feel like you've gotten something extra for your money. But you can understand why the networks would cringe at trying to squeeze one of those beasts into the boob-tube line-up.

Another thing I like about Primel time is how the ′trice is such a close analog to the minute, and how an ′unquatrice is a decaminute. So on paper, multiplies of ten minutes look almost identical to multiples of dozen ′trices. TGM unciahours and biciahours don't share this resemblance. Furthermore, in just three Primel digits, you can quite efficiently express time of day to the same accuracy as hours and minutes. To do the same in TGM requires four digits, with d[25]-second biciahours giving you a superfluous extra level of precision to the half-minute. While many purposes can be served by rounding to the nearest pentaminute (unciahour), the same can be said for rounding to the nearest ′hexatrice, without sacrificing applications that require minute accuracy.

Of course, the level of familiarity you get at the minute-level comes at the price of getting accustomed to a different reality at the hour-level. But nothing's perfect. ;)
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 27 2013, 10:52 PM #41

[i]I'm taking a snapshot of the original post for historical reasons before making some changes to it:[/i] [quote="Kodegadulo @ Jun 23 2012, 09:12 PM"] [/quote]
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
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Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
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Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
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Dec 27 2013, 11:17 PM #42

I decided I needed to rectify an inconsistency of mine. Quantitels are supposed to be based on the actual word used for the type of quantity they measure. I had avoided that with temperature because ′temperaturel just felt too awkward, so I had picked ′thermel instead. But I've thought better about that now, and am trying out ′temperatel (′Tpℓ) instead. (Pronounciation: /'tεmpɹətəl/.) If that doesn't work for people I might go with ′temperaturel and just live with it.

Additionally, I've changed the colloquial name for the ′quadquatemperatel from ′staditherm to ′stadegree, with symbol now ′Ϛ° (stigma + degree sign). (Pronunciation: /'steɪdɨgɹi/.)

I've corrected this in the table in the original post.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
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Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
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wendy.krieger
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Dec 28 2013, 01:06 AM #43

I would use thremmel for the temperature unit in your scheme.

None the same, is this scheme robust enough to survive a major redesign in dimensions? I don't usually have the same analysis in all systems.
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 28 2013, 03:08 AM #44

wendy.krieger @ Dec 28 2013, 01:06 AM wrote:I would use thremmel for the temperature unit in your scheme.
I wouldn't. :) It was bad enough when I diverged from the Quantitel principle to measure "temperature" in "thermels" when it should have been "temperaturels" or similar. I'm not going to go with something even less evocative of "temperature", like "thremm."
None the same, is this scheme robust enough to survive a major redesign in dimensions?  I don't usually have the same analysis in all systems.
Not sure what you mean. What major redesign are you talking about?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 29 2013, 10:52 PM #45

Follow-up to this post from the "Mesures Usuelles Coutumiers" thread:
Kodegadulo @ Dec 29 2013, 09:01 PM wrote:One ′thumb equals 0.969752139 inches, but don't worry about all those fiddly digits unless you're a scientist, just use 31/32 inch most of the time
By the way, the reason I call it a ′thumb, and not an ′inch, is because etymologically speaking "inch" is just a corruption of "uncia". And I'm thinking that only units that actually are uncias of their base unit should get those sorts of names, otherwise it might be misleading. Oh, I'm not declaring this a hard-and-fast law, if you want to nickname it the ′inch be my guest. But I'll avoid it myself because it's not the ′uncialengthel; it's the ′trilengthel (3 ′Lnℓ), where the ′lengthel is this notebook-line-sized (or barley-kernel-sized) unit. But our customary inch has ancient roots based on the size of a human thumb, and in fact its Roman precursor was known as the pollex, Latin for "thumb", so that's the source for the Primel name.

On the other hand, in TGM the base unit is the Grafut, which is an analog to the customary foot. So its uncia is an analog to the customary inch, making it fair game to give it a nickname like Gravinch, or "unch", or whatnot. But if I call it a Gravthumb or Thumz or whatever, I bet you could guess what I meant. :)

I guess the same reasoning argues against calling anything in Primel anything like "ounce", since that's another corruption of "uncia". I have been calling out an ′ozvol and an ′ozmass, as auxiliary units analogous to the customary fluid ounce and the avoirdupois ounce, respectively. (These names are plays on the "oz" abbreviation for "ounce".) But since the ′ozvol is z[23] z[46] ′volumels, and the ′ozmass is z[23] z[46] ′massels, they aren't uncias of their base units. The ′ozmass isn't even the uncia of the ′pintmass, which is the analog of the avoirdupois pound; z[14] ′ozmasses make up a ′pintmass, just as d[16] ounces make up a pound.

However, the ′ozvol is just a cubic ′thumb (hence (3 ′lengthels)3 = z[23] cubic ′lengthels). So, following the pattern in which cubing the ′hand yields a ′handvol (liter analog), and filling it with water yields a ′handmass (kilogram analog), we could cube the ′thumb to yield the ′thumbvol, which would be the analog for the fluid ounce, and fill it with water to yield the ′thumbmass, which would be the analog for the avoirdupois ounce.

Edit: Oops. I messed up. z[23] ′volumels is the ′supvol, the tablespoon analog, so the ′thumbvol would just be a synonym for that. Seems odd to think that a tablespoon would be equivalent to a whole cubic inch. Two of those, z[46] ′volumels, make up an ′ozvol. But I don't have a handy replacement for that any more.

Hmm. While we're about it with this cubing of body parts and filling of them with water, how about doing the same with the ′foot? That would give you the ′footvol and the ′footmass. What are those analogs of? Why ... the TGM Volm and Maz! Actually, they are almost identical with them. If the TGM Gee had been identical with the ′gravitel and the SI standard gravity, then these units would have been completely identical.

Extending the pattern, the following pairs would also be almost identical: ′footweight and Mag; ′footpressure and Prem; ′footwork and Werg; ′footpower and Pov (although this last one would take a little fancy footwork, pun intended).
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Dec 30 2013, 09:07 AM #46

Replying to a post by dgiii in Sunny's "Hello" thread:
dgoodmaniii @ Dec 24 2013, 04:53 AM wrote: After that (a consistently dozenal and coherent system), it's just a matter of what comes together better.  In TGM, for example, in addition to things like keeping the hour and the five-minute block, the unit of current blends pretty well with the ampere, and the standard TGM paper sizes are almost identical to standard SI paper sizes (so close, in fact, that a sheet of A4 is a pretty accurate Grafut rule). 
TGM (Gf-1) = 1 Gf = 295.6829 mm ~ A4 = 297 mm
Shaving off that (less than a) millimeter and a half is an exercise in futility. Other systems match up in other ways, of course, which I'll leave their proponents to explain elsewhere. (The TGM match-ups are explained more fully in the TGM book, of course.)
Up to now, I've pretty much glossed over the section of the TGM book about paper sizes, being not much interested in that before. But I took a close look at it for once, and discovered a remarkable thing: The same correspondence exists with Primel units as it does with TGM units, but if anything, it is even more elegant in Primel!

For the area-based A-series paper sizes, these correspond to a length-based series in Primel just as for TGM. But in the Primel case, the top dimension (height) of the A0 size turns out to very close to ... the ′ell, i.e., the ′biqualengthel, z[100] ′lines. That places a round power of the Primel base unit right at the top of the series, not coming in in the middle as the Grafut does from TGM. So we could dub the Primel version of this series the ′Ell-Series (which might be pronounced as a homophone of "Primel Series"), with ′Ell-0 at the top having a height of 1 ′ell and corresponding to the A0 size. The ′Ell-4 size, corresponding to the A4 size, would have a height of one quarter ′ell, or z[30] ′lines -- this is the ′foot, which is almost identical to the Grafut. The ′Ell-8 size, corresponding to the A8 size, would have a height of one quarter ′foot, or 9 ′lines -- this is the ′palm, three ′thumbs.

For the length-based B-series paper sizes, these correspond to an area-based series in Primel just as for TGM. But in the Primel case, the top area of the B0 size turns out to be very close to ... the ′ellsquare, i.e., the ′quadquasquarel, z[10000] ′linesquares. So, again, we've got a round power of a Primel base unit at the top of the series, and not coming in in the middle like the Surf does from TGM. So we could dub the Primel version of this series the ′Ellsquare-Series (which might be pronounced as a homophone of "Primel Square Series"), with ′Ellsquare-0 at the top having an area of 1 ′ellsquare and corresponding to the B0 size. The ′Ellsquare-4 size, corresponding to the B4 size, would have an area of z[1/14th] ′ellsquare, or z[900] ′linesquares -- this is the ′footsquare, which is almost identical to the Surf. The ′Ellsquare-8 size, corresponding to the B8 size, would have an area of z[1/14th] ′footsquare, or z[69] ′linesquares -- this is the ′palmsquare, nine ′thumbsquares.

Note that I've used the TGM convention of separating the unit name and the size number with a sign indicator. But since a Primel unit kicks off the top of each series, so that all the rest of the sizes are smaller, the sign indicator is always a minus. So it might just as well be seen as a hyphen required stylistically because the prefix is a whole word for a unit rather than just a single letter as in the Metric sizes. However, we might come up with abbreviations for these series instead: We could abbreviate the ′Ell series as ′L0, ′L1, ′L2, etc.; and the ′Ellsquare series as ′LSq0, ′LSq1, ′LSq2, etc.

In both series, the digit in each paper size is exactly the same as the digit in the corresponding SI paper size. I am sure this would reduce confusion and ease adoption by users of A and B series paper.

Edit: See a follow-up slide for the tables.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
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click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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dgoodmaniii
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Dec 31 2013, 03:10 AM #47

Kodegadulo @ Dec 30 2013, 09:07 AM wrote: Up to now, I've pretty much glossed over the section of the TGM book about paper sizes, being not much interested in that before. But I took a close look at it for once, and discovered a remarkable thing: The same correspondence exists with Primel units as it does with TGM units, but if anything, it is even more elegant in Primel!
How so? The ell is, according to this thread, 1182.32 mllimeters; but A0 paper is 1189 millimeters. That's nearly 7 millimeters off; which isn't too bad, given that Gf+3 is 1182.73 mm, closer but only marginally so. Still, split that in half twice: 295.58 mm, with A4 being 297. Gf-1 is 295.68 mm; again, closer, even if only marginally so. The shorter side would start at 836.02 mm, as opposed to A0's 841 mm; at A4 size, 209.005, basically 209, the same as Gf-1.

I mean, this works out very well; but it works out marginally worse than TGM. I don't see the added elegance, especially since most people never deal with anything other than A4 and A5, except for the very occasional A0 poster; having the familiar base unit serve as the length of what's by far the most commonly used sheet of paper seems easier and more elegant.

I want to emphasize here that I really don't have much against Primel at all; I see it as pretty clearly in the Pendlebury legacy, and TGM could be set up almost exactly as it is now within Primel, as auxiliary units based purely on the Primel base units (and vice verse, for that matter).

But I don't see this as any more elegant at all, especially since it uses an auxiliary unit rather than the base. TGM could just take a quadraGrafut (1182.7316 mm), give it a special name, and make it the long side of A0, building up the same system as yours for Primel here, keeping the paper numbers as they are in metric. But it makes more sense to leave the base unit as the length of the most common and useful sheet.
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use :A or X; for elv, I use :B or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
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wendy.krieger
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Dec 31 2013, 03:42 AM #48

The A0 sheet is how the paper is made. Even letter is a quad sheet, of which letter is a quarto. This is the same division as A4 that one might call it american quarto.

Metric refers to trimmed sizes, not full shape.
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