Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature

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Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature

Kodegadulo
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Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 16 2011, 09:06 PM #1

[i][color=grey]NOTE: This thread represents a continuation of the discussion begun in the [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=437&view=findpost&p=4130768]Clearer TGM Prefix Suffixes[/url] thread, in which SDN was developed. This post and others it links to attempt to provide a wiki about SDN summarizing the most up to date thinking, but realize that other posts here represent the ongoing discussion that lead to what you see here. For an actual wiki about SDN, see [url=https://primelmetrology.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/PM/pages/36217/Systematic+Numeric+Nomenclature+Dozenal]here[/url].[/color][/i] [b]Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature[/b] (SDN) is, primarily, a system of metric prefixes derived from familiar numeric word-roots from classical Greek and Latin, with dozenal extensions. It is inspired by (and subsumes as a subset) the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_element_name]Systematic Element Name[/url] scheme devised by the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Union_of_Pure_and_Applied_Chemistry]International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry[/url] (IUPAC). It is also inspired by (and is offered as a replacement for ([url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4134026]Why?[/url])) the dozenal metric prefix system devised by Tom Pendlebury as an adjunct to his [url=http://www.dozenalsociety.org.uk/pdfs/TGMbooklet.pdf]TGM System[/url] of measurement units. Of chief importance are the [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] generated by the SDN rules. They are expected to be the most frequently used parts of this system, acting as metric-style scaling prefixes on units of measurement. The table below summarizes these prefixes and the quantities they represent: [b][z][/b] [i]Default to dozenal[/i] (See my [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=1076&view=findpost&p=22102837]index post[/url] to find out about base-neutral base qualifiers.) (For each of the forms, the abbreviations on the left use special Unicode characters; these should be favored in enhanced environments where Unicode is supported. The abbreviations on the right are alternatives using only the basic ASCII character set; these can be used in disadvantaged environments.) SDN uses the following elements to generate dozenal metric prefixes:[list] [*]a set of [color=BLUE]digit roots[/color] derived from classical Latin and Greek, representing the dozenal digits [color=BLUE]zero[/color] through [color=BLUE]eleven[/color] (see [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133561][color=blue]Digit Roots[/color][/url]) [*]rules for combining a sequence of [color=BLUE]digit roots[/color] into a place-valued [color=BLUE]numeral string[/color] (see [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133562][color=blue]Numeral Strings[/color][/url]) [*][color=GREEN]multiplier-markers[/color] which are appended onto the [color=BLUE]numeral strings[/color] to generate [color=GREEN]multiplier prefixes[/color] (see [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133573][color=green]Multiplier Prefixes[/color][/url]) [*]an optional [color=RED]reciprocal-marker[/color] which may be appended onto any [color=GREEN]multiplier prefix[/color] to turn it into its [color=RED]reciprocal prefix[/color] (see [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4144051][color=red]Reciprocal Prefixes[/color][/url]) [*][color=PURPLE]power-markers[/color] which are appended onto the [color=BLUE]numeral strings[/color] to generate [color=PURPLE]power prefixes[/color] (see [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133591][color=purple]Power Prefixes[/color][/url]) [*]rules for combining [color=GREEN]multiplier prefixes[/color], [color=red]reciprocal prefixes[/color], and [color=PURPLE]power prefixes[/color], with each other as well as with the words they modify (for instance, units of measure). [*]A [b][color=green]systematic[/color] [color=red]dozenal[/color] [color=purple]prefix[/color][/b] consists of an optional [color=green]multiplier prefix[/color], followed by an optional [color=red]reciprocal prefix[/color], followed by an optional [color=purple]power prefix[/color]. (This is known as the [color=green]Compact[/color] [color=red]Rational[/color] [color=purple]Scientific[/color] scheme, because it accomplishes with words something analogous to what scientific notation does with numerals, but also allows the mantissa part to be expressed as either an integer, a "ditted" floating-point value, or as a rational fraction.) [*]The [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] can also be repurposed as standalone English words, providing possible solutions for the [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4135557]Dozenal English[/url] problem. [/list][b]Examples:[/b][list] [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133800]Time Units[/url], and [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133879]Suggested Colloquialisms[/url]. Also, [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=22153966]SDN-derived dozenal analogs[/url] for "decade", "century", "millennium", etc. [*]Length/Distance Units: [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4135583]Suggested Colloquialisms[/url]. [*]Volume Units: [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4135674]Suggested Colloquialisms[/url]. [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133692]Polytopes[/url] [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133709]Numeric Bases[/url]. And an idea of how to name [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=887&view=findpost&p=22079199]Alternating or Encoded Bases[/url]. [*]There's also a thread exploring the possibility of using SDN as a comprehensive [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=1267]mini international auxiliary language[/url] (mini-IAL) for expressing dozenal numbers, including an idea about how to form ordinal numbers, as well as how to express powers and roots. [/list][i][color=GRAY]This post will serve as the jumping-off point for the whole topic of systematic nomenclature. Subsequent posts will cover subtopics, and will be hyperlinked here as they are developed. This thread is still under construction, so please be patient.[/color][/i]
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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m1n1f1g
Dozens Disciple
m1n1f1g
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Joined: Feb 20 2011, 10:15 AM

Oct 16 2011, 09:55 PM #2

I have thought of a rational way of describing why the -qua or -ua suffixes fit certain purposes, to do with euphony rather than magnitude. If the root ends in a consonant cluster (including 'x' = /ks/, but not 'nn' = /n/), '-ua' should be used; if not, '-qua' should be used. That gives:
nilqua
unqua
biqua
triqua
quadqua
pentua
hexua
septua
octua
ennqua
decqua
levqua

Otherwise, maybe if the root ends in a /k/, /s/, /t/ or /d/ sound, '-ua' should be used. I think these are called non-sonorant consonants. Helpfully, Wikipedia lists the sonorant consonants of English (with my annotations):
/l/, /m/, /n/, /ŋ/ = sing, /ɹ/ = borrow, /w/, /j/ = yellow
So, sonorant consonants and vowels have '-qua', and everything else has '-ua'. Let's see:
nilqua
unqua
biqua
triqua
quadua
pentua
hexua
septua
octua
ennqua
decua
levua

That's much closer to what I aimed for. Note that I looked all of this up on-the-spot. This is possibly wrong, I'm not an expert of these things. Effectively, the only difference is having "ennqua", and only having "quadua". That was the idea.

The same holds for the negative power prefixes: "-cia" in place of "-qua" and "-ia" in place of "-ua".
A few little conventions:
- Dozenal integers suffixed with prime (′). This is the uncial point.
- Decimal integers suffixed with middle dot (·). This is the decimal point.

You may see me use * prefix for messages before 11Ɛ7-03-1X, and a whole range of similar radix points. I will often use X and Ɛ for :A and :B.

Sometimes, I will imply that an integer is in dozenal, so I won't add any marks to it. You should be able to tell that "10 = 22 * 3" is in dozenal.
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Kodegadulo
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Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 17 2011, 03:13 AM #3

m1n1f1g @ Oct 16 2011, 09:55 PM wrote:I have thought of a rational way of describing why the -qua or -ua suffixes fit certain purposes, to do with euphony rather than magnitude. If the root ends in a consonant cluster (including 'x' = /ks/, but not 'nn' = /n/), '-ua' should be used; if not, '-qua' should be used. That gives:
...

Otherwise, maybe if the root ends in a /k/, /s/, /t/ or /d/ sound, '-ua' should be used. I think these are called non-sonorant consonants. Helpfully, Wikipedia lists the sonorant consonants of English (with my annotations):
/l/, /m/, /n/, /ŋ/ = sing, /ɹ/ = borrow, /w/, /j/ = yellow...
Those are interesting rationales, but I would prefer to keep the ninth powers as ennua/ennia, simply because the root enn was distilled from the original Greek ennea. Given this origin, it seems natural to follow enn with a vowel rather than a consonant. Also, I think there ought to be a clear contrast between ennua/ennia versus unqua/uncia, to make it unlikely people will confuse the first and ninth powers, if for no other reason. EDIT: On further consideration, I reversed my position on these points. See this post.)

We justify putting qua/cia on un because we want to capitalize on the ancient Latin uncia. We justify putting those on bi and tri because they end in a vowel so we need to interpose a consonant before we append more vowels. We justify putting those endings on quad because ... well, because dgoodmaniii insisted on the fourth powers being pronounceable in two syllables.

I admit though, the rationale for using qua/cia on nil is more problematic. I suppose they would work equally well as nilua/nilia. If there's a consensus for this, I can recast the rule either to make the q/c optional (like for quad) or place nil in the vowel-only group.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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dgoodmaniii
Dozens Demigod
dgoodmaniii
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Joined: May 21 2009, 01:45 PM

Oct 17 2011, 03:21 AM #4

Kodegadulo @ Oct 17 2011, 03:13 AM wrote: I admit though, the rationale for using qua/cia on nil is more problematic. I suppose they would work equally well as nilua/nilia. If there's a consensus for this, I can recast the rule either to make the q/c optional (like for quad) or place nil in the vowel-only group.
Really? I find "nilqua" much easier to handle than "nilua."
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use :A or X; for elv, I use :B or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
TGM for the win!
Dozenal Adventures
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Kodegadulo
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Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 18 2011, 01:12 AM #5

[list] [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133414]SDN[/url] uses a set of [color=blue]digit roots[/color] derived from classical Latin and Greek. [*]The roots for the digits [color=blue]one[/color] through [color=blue]nine[/color] are identical with those chosen by IUPAC for its (decimal) [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_element_name]Systematic Element Names[/url]. [*]SDN extends these dozenally with roots for transdecimal digits [color=blue]ten[/color] and [color=blue]eleven[/color]. [*]The root [color=blue]dec[/color] is the obvious choice for digit [color=blue]ten[/color] [*]The root [color=blue]lev[/color] is a coinage derived by contracting English [color=red]eleven[/color] -- but it can also be derived from Latin! (See below.) [*][color=blue]Digit roots[/color] are concatenated to form [color=blue]numeral strings[/color]. (See [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133562][color=blue]Numeral Strings[/color][/url].) [*]SDN [color=green]multiplier prefixes[/color] are designed to be close approximations of the Latin or Greek [color=red]combining forms[/color] from which the [color=blue]digit roots[/color] themselves are derived. The intent is to mimic forms already in current use by scientists and lay people, since those forms act as simple numeric multipliers. (See [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133573][color=green]Multiplier Prefixes[/color][/url].) [*]SDN [color=purple]power prefixes[/color], on the other hand, are designed to be clearly distinct from those pre-existing [color=red]combining forms[/color], yet still recognizably derivative from them, and at least plausible as Latinate word-forms. (See [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133591][color=purple]Power Prefixes[/color][/url].) [/list]The following table shows etymological derivations for the [color=blue]digit roots[/color]: [url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=930&view=findpost&p=22086725][b][z][/b][/url] [i]Default to dozenal[/i]
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 18 2011, 01:14 AM #6

[list] [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133414]SDN[/url] concatenates [color=blue]digit roots[/color] to form place-valued [color=blue]numeral strings[/color]. [*]Normally, [color=blue]numeral strings[/color] do not appear in isolation but instead are embedded within a prefix. [*]A [color=blue]numeral string[/color] may represent the [color=blue]mantissa[/color] of a [color=green]multiplier prefix[/color]. [*]A [color=blue]numeral string[/color] may represent the [color=blue]exponent[/color] of a [color=purple]power prefix[/color]. [*]The second [color=blue]-n-[/color] in [color=blue]enn[/color] is elided if followed by [color=blue]nil[/color], yielding [color=blue]ennil[/color] rather than [color=blue]ennnil[/color]. [*]Except for dozenal interpretation, and the presence of transdecimal [color=blue]digit roots[/color], these [color=blue]numeral strings[/color] are the same as those generated for IUPAC's (decimal) [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systematic_element_name]Systematic Element Names[/url]. [/list]The following table shows the first one gross two dozen [color=blue]numeral strings[/color] generated according to SDN rules: The following table shows [color=blue]numeral strings[/color] representing the first few powers of dozen: Even though theoretically you can represent any natural number using these [color=blue]numeral strings[/color], this last table demonstrates that, practically speaking, they are not scalable to very large numbers. But that is where [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] come in.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 18 2011, 03:12 AM #7

[img]http://img3.hebus.com/hebus_2004/08/30/040830234758_63.gif[/img] [img]http://img3.hebus.com/hebus_2004/09/05/040905090006_59.gif[/img] [list] [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133414]SDN[/url] appends [color=green]multiplier markers[/color] onto [color=blue]numeral strings[/color] to generate [color=green]multiplier prefixes[/color]. The [color=blue]numeral string[/color] in a [color=green]multiplier prefix[/color] represents its [color=blue]mantissa[/color]. [*]SDN [color=green]multiplier prefixes[/color] are designed to be close approximations of the Latin or Greek [color=red]combining forms[/color] which the [color=blue]digit roots[/color] themselves are derived from. The intent is to mimic forms already in current use by scientists and lay people, since those forms act as simple numeric multipliers. [*]A [color=green]multiplier marker[/color] consists of a final [color=green]-a-[/color] or [color=green]-i-[/color], depending on the immediately-preceding [color=blue]digit root[/color], possibly with an intervening letter added for euphony depending on the preceding [color=blue]digit root[/color]. [*]Where both [color=green]-a-[/color] and [color=green]-i-[/color] are allowed, they do not change the meaning of the prefix. [*]The [color=green]euphony letters[/color] are derived from the original etymologies of their respective [color=blue]digit roots[/color]. [*]Elision is allowed where it produces no ambiguity: Some or all of the [color=green]multiplier marker[/color] may be dropped depending on whether the [color=green]multiplier prefix[/color] is followed by a [color=purple]power prefix[/color] or something else; and also on whether the follower begins with a consonant or a vowel (see table below). In some cases, when the follower is a [color=purple]power prefix[/color] beginning with a vowel, an [color=green]-n-[/color] is inserted for euphony. [*]One [color=green]dit[/color] syllable may be included between [color=blue]digit roots[/color] to indicate the position of the radix point in the [color=blue]mantissa[/color]. If none is included, the [color=blue]mantissa[/color] represents a whole number. [/list] [b]Examples[/b] [color=green]bi[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 2-year period [color=green]tri[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 3-year period [color=green]quadr[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 4-year period [color=green]oct[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 8-year period [color=green]unnil[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = [color=purple]unqu[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 10-year period [color=green]unquadr[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 14-year period [color=green]bioct[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 28-year period [color=green]pentquadr[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 54-year period [color=green]decoct[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = X8-year period [color=green]unnilnil[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = [color=purple]biqu[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 100-year period [color=green]unennquadr[/color][color=red]ennium[/color] = 194-year period
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
Quote
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Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 18 2011, 06:13 AM #8

[list] [*][url=http://z13.invisionfree.com/DozensOnline/index.php?showtopic=463&view=findpost&p=4133414]SDN[/url] appends [color=purple]power markers[/color] onto [color=blue]numeral strings[/color] to generate [color=purple]power prefixes[/color]. [*]The intent for the [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] is they be at least plausible as Latinate word forms, but at the same time clearly distinct from pre-existing Latin and Greek [color=red]combining forms[/color] already used in English (which the [color=green]multiplier prefixes[/color] are intended to mimic and which the [color=blue]digit roots[/color] themselves derive from). [*]The intent is also to make the positive and negative [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] clearly distinct from each other, without forcing speakers to put unnatural stress on otherwise unstressed syllables. One issue with Pendlebury's power prefixes is that the only difference between his positive and negative powers are the final vowels [color=red]-a-[/color] and [color=red]-i-[/color] in unstressed syllables, which are difficult to distinguish unless the speaker makes an unnatural effort to enunciate the [color=red]-i-[/color] sound. [*]The [color=purple]-cia-[/color] marker was chosen for the negative powers because this makes [color=purple]uncia[/color] the first negative power (equal to one dozenth). This is exactly the same as the Latin word [color=red]uncia[/color] "a twelfth-part", from which English derives both [color=red]inch[/color] and [color=red]ounce[/color]. The combination of the fronted glide from the [color=purple]-i-[/color] to the [color=purple]-a-[/color], as well as the soft [color=purple]-c-[/color], are distinctive and easily distinguished from the flat [color=green]-a-[/color] or [color=green]-i-[/color] sound heard in the [color=green]multiplier markers[/color]. [*]The [color=purple]-qua-[/color] marker was chosen for the positive powers to provide a contrast with other forms. The labial glide from the [color=purple]-u-[/color] to the [color=purple]-a-[/color], as well as the hard [color=purple]-q-[/color], are distinctive and easily distinguished from the [color=purple]negative prefixes[/color] as well as the [color=green]multiplier markers[/color]. [*]The final [color=purple]-a-[/color] on any of the [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] may be dropped, without loss of meaning, when the following word begins with a vowel. The natural tendency of English to do this elision causes no harm, so long as the distinctive part of these prefixes (the [color=purple]-qu-[/color] or the [color=purple]-ci-[/color]) remains intact. [*]Some may find the consonant clusters of [color=purple]pentqua-, septqua-, and octqua-[/color], with the juxtaposition of a /n/, /p/, or /k/ sound immediately followed by a /t/ and then a /kw/, difficult to articulate. This can be alleviated by interjecting a slight pause or even a faint /ɪ/ syllable in between the /t/ and /k/, or by weakening the/t/ to a glottal stop //. [*]Based on the resulting forms for their first powers, the positive and negative [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] are informally know as "[color=purple]Unqual[/color]" and "[color=purple]Uncial[/color]" prefixes, respectively. [/list] * Pronunciations given are guides, not dictates. Your mileage may vary. :)
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Kodegadulo
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Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Oct 18 2011, 06:11 PM #9

m1n1f1g @ Oct 16 2011, 09:55 PM wrote: I have thought of a rational way of describing why the -qua or -ua suffixes fit certain purposes, to do with euphony rather than magnitude. If the root ends in a consonant cluster (including 'x' = /ks/, but not 'nn' = /n/), '-ua' should be used; if not, '-qua' should be used.
You know, I'm persuaded by this now, m1n1f1g. Good job.

I'm in the middle of building up this thread as a definitive pinnable resource for people, so I'm forced to nail down all the details, and there's definitely devils in them. In particular I'm trying to resolve some goals:

(1) Make sure the positive and negative power prefixes, as well as the multiplier prefixes are all distinctive and clearly distinct from each other.

(2) Get the multiplier prefixes to resemble, as much as possible, the original Latin/Greek combination forms they're derived from and which are already used in English.

(3) Make sure it all fits together cleanly and compellingly.

So for example goal (2) means getting the multiplier prefix for nine to be ennea-. I can easily get there by saying that the middle -e- is a "euphony letter" and use the same final vowel -a- as for most of the other multipliers. The trouble is, I just can't hear any difference in pronunciation between ennea- as a multiplier and ennia- as a negative power.

So now I'm persuaded that the ninth powers should be ennqua- and enncia-. And I'm backing off my concern that those might get confused with unqua- and uncia-. The differences are in well-stressed vowels, so I shouldn't worry. I mean, a hundred years ago the Brits were mobilizing to go to war with "the Hun". If we can't tell the difference between that and going to war with "the Hen", I think we're in real trouble! :)

In fact, I think you're right about the rest too. To meet goal (1), we should maximize the use of those distinctive -qua- and -cia- syllables. Put them everywhere we can get away with them. Only reduce them to -ua- and -ia- where we absolutely have to, after those difficult consonant clusters between pent and oct. That's a good, clear rationale that fits goal (3).

I'll adjust the tables in the other posts accordingly. Once I do, let me know what you think, folks.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 18 2011, 07:14 PM #10

Kodegadulo @ Oct 18 2011, 06:11 PM wrote: I'll adjust the tables in the other posts accordingly. Once I do, let me know what you think, folks.
Done.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 19 2011, 03:57 AM #11

Added pronunciation guides to the Power Prefixes post.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 19 2011, 04:09 AM #12

As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 19 2011, 11:57 AM #13

As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 19 2011, 12:30 PM #14

How do our British members feel about the palatalized monosyllabic /ʃə/ pronunciation I've given to the -cia- marker (and even to the -tia- in powers 5 through 8)? This may seem "Americanized", but on the other hand how do you pronounce words like "special" and "partial"? If anyone wants to offer a "British pronunciation" for any of these prefixes, I'd be happy to incorporate them into the chart.
Kodegadulo @ Oct 18 2011, 06:13 AM wrote:The final -a- on any of the power prefixes may be dropped, without loss of meaning, when the following word begins with a vowel. The natural tendency of English to do this elision causes no harm, so long as the distinctive part of these prefixes (the -[q]u- or the -[c]i-) remains intact.
I'm starting to second-guess this idea, at least for the negative powers. I think eliding the -a- might turn -cia- /ʃə/ into -ci- /sɪ/. Is this a problem? Opinions?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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m1n1f1g
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Oct 19 2011, 07:36 PM #15

Kodegadulo @ Oct 19 2011, 01:30 PM wrote: How do our British members feel about the palatalized monosyllabic /ʃə/ pronunciation I've given to the -cia- marker (and even to the -tia- in powers 5 through 8)? This may seem "Americanized", but on the other hand how do you pronounce words like "special" and "partial"? If anyone wants to offer a "British pronunciation" for any of these prefixes, I'd be happy to incorporate them into the chart.
Surely it's easy enough to offer the alternative of /ʃə/ or /sɪ.ə/. That said, we do say /spɛ.ʃəl/. However, "specia" is not the root, it comes from Latin "specialis". That also went through French. With "uncial" (and related terms) the root is "uncia", and that looks like /ʌn.sɪ.ə/. That came straight from Latin. It would be helpful if anyone could find a similar word matching these criteria to back up this point.

Researching "uncia", I've found that the snow leopard is called either "uncia uncia" or "Panthera uncia", probably the first one although it is disputed. Also, note that the plural of uncia is "unciae", in English as well as Latin.
A few little conventions:
- Dozenal integers suffixed with prime (′). This is the uncial point.
- Decimal integers suffixed with middle dot (·). This is the decimal point.

You may see me use * prefix for messages before 11Ɛ7-03-1X, and a whole range of similar radix points. I will often use X and Ɛ for :A and :B.

Sometimes, I will imply that an integer is in dozenal, so I won't add any marks to it. You should be able to tell that "10 = 22 * 3" is in dozenal.
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Shaun
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Oct 19 2011, 07:48 PM #16

The "ounce" is also an English name for the big cat.
I use the following conventions for dozenal numbers in my posts.

* prefixes a dozenal number, e.g. *50 = 60.
The apostrophe (') is used as a dozenal point, e.g. 0'6 = 0.5.
T and E stand for ten and eleven respectively.
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 20 2011, 01:42 AM #17

I added the alternate three-syllable /sɪ.ə/ pronunciation for the -cia- positive powers. Then to balance things, I figured the positive powers deserved to have an alternate three-syllable pronunciation too, but to do that I had to re-introduce the old -cua- marker as an variant spelling. Don't worry, I'll use the -qua- versions for all the examples.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 20 2011, 10:19 AM #18

In the table below, we do some comparisons with different units of measure. First we show plain quantities of equivalent units, unscaled. Then we drop the trailing zeroes from the quantities and exchange them for [color=purple]power prefixes[/color] on the units. Then for good measure, we show how the mantissa digits could be turned into [color=green]multiplier prefixes[/color]. In the rightmost columns, we show an alternate scheme where [color=green]multiplier prefixes[/color] include the syllable [color=green]dit[/color] to indicate the presence of a radix point. That way, we can scale the [color=purple]power prefix[/color] up to the closest order of magnitude less than the quantity and place the mantissa between 1 and 10.. These demonstrate what we can theoretically do with the [color=green]Compact[/color] [color=purple]Scientific[/color] prefix scheme, taken to extremes. In practice, however, we are unlikely to use the latter forms unless they are very simple, such as [color=green]penta[/color][color=red]Minute[/color] for [color=purple]uncia[/color][color=red]Hour[/color] or [color=green]septa[/color][color=red]Day[/color] for [color=red]Week[/color]. [Arggh! Lost a bunch of this post by accident! Serves me right for over-editing!]
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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heynonnymouse
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Oct 20 2011, 10:41 AM #19

These lists are fascinating - but will anybody actually use these long words? The ordinary person surely will prefer simple expressions. Words have to be made where they are not in the language - they will need to be short and simple if they are to be liked and used. These may be good with scientists but each language will prefer a word for the unit - maybe, for argument, "prima" for the first twelfth of the hour, "sekunda" for the next and so on.
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dgoodmaniii
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Oct 20 2011, 12:07 PM #20

Heynonnymouse @ Oct 20 2011, 10:41 AM wrote: These lists are fascinating - but will anybody actually use these long words? The ordinary person surely will prefer simple expressions. Words have to be made where they are not in the language - they will need to be short and simple if they are to be liked and used. These may be good with scientists but each language will prefer a word for the unit - maybe, for argument, "prima" for the first twelfth of the hour, "sekunda" for the next and so on.
No, I think Kode knows that people are unlikely to use these lengthy words except in extraordinary circumstances; they are just a demonstration of how the prefixes are used in more normal situations.

People are likely to go right on using hours; with TGM, the Tim is the smallest integral unit, and people will probably come up with some simple words for it. E.g., a twelfth of an hour might be a block, a twelfth of that might be a tock, and a twelfth of that a tick, until we get to a Tim (a twelfth of the last).

We really do need a name for units between an hour and a minute long. The dozenal system gives us convenient-sized units for such, including the ever-present five-minute period (a twelfth of an hour), and TGM is even based on one such (1 hour x 10-4, or 410), the Tim; all we need to do is fill in the names.
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use :A or X; for elv, I use :B or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
TGM for the win!
Dozenal Adventures
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icarus
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Oct 20 2011, 01:42 PM #21

Heynonnymouse, I remember back in 1976 reading that the Earth weighed "six sextillion tons". Being six, I thought that sextillion was a word much like thousand, million, and billion. Clearly the word had its use, i.e. weighing rocky inner planets. Much beyond that, there is very little use for the word, yet it can exist.

Today we read about "400 nanometer" wavelengths of light. (I think that's very deep blue, near ultraviolet). The word nanometer may not see everyday application for most of society. Yet in certain circles, it is in common use. A LED light salesman was talking to me a couple months ago about wavelengths in nanometers.

"Sextillion" might have caught on if SI weren't superior to US Customary for scientific purposes, as it is a scalable system of measure, i.e. based on the number base in play, not because it is decimal. (Additionally, the British and American systems for powers of ten larger than 108 differ significantly, this renders "sextillion" a provincial word. The American "billion" is also provincial, even in Italian it is milliardo, but it is ubiquitous, thanks to all the debt everywhere.) Such words would have fared better if the construction of the nomenclature of the powers of ten was better organized, like Kode's system is shaping up to be. (Tom Pendlebury also has a well-functioning system of number words).

I think this is what is going on in this thread; Kode is studying a systematic method for naming numbers of extreme scale. Not everyone will use them everyday, but some would rely on them, because of their special interests and work applications.

As a matter of fact, I am about to apply Kode's system to my next post. Let me see when the client needs this cathedral I'm working on, and you'll see it. (I am sure I am going to get it wrong.)
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Kodegadulo
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Oct 20 2011, 01:51 PM #22

dgoodmaniii @ Oct 20 2011, 12:07 PM wrote:
Heynonnymouse @ Oct 20 2011, 10:41 AM wrote: These lists are fascinating - but will anybody actually use these long words? The ordinary person surely will prefer simple expressions. Words have to be made where they are not in the language - they will need to be short and simple if they are to be liked and used. These may be good with scientists but each language will prefer a word for the unit - maybe, for argument, "prima" for the first twelfth of the hour, "sekunda" for the next and so on.
No, I think Kode knows that people are unlikely to use these lengthy words except in extraordinary circumstances; they are just a demonstration of how the prefixes are used in more normal situations.
In fact, I mentioned that myself in introducing those examples. The point really is to demonstrate that the multiplier prefixes and the power prefixes aren't two completely separate and competing systems, but rather two parts of an integrated system that you can combine and dovetail to whatever extent you please. I'm demonstrating that you can really push these word-formation rules to extremes without them breaking down. In practice, though, we're likely to use only a simple multiplier or a simple power by itself at any given time, but if there's an application for gluing them together, there's no barrier to doing that.
People are likely to go right on using hours; with TGM, the Tim is the smallest integral unit, and people will probably come up with some simple words for it.  E.g., a twelfth of an hour might be a block, a twelfth of that might be a tock, and a twelfth of that a tick, until we get to a Tim (a twelfth of the last).
What these examples allow you to do is make definitional statements like:

"An Hour is a quadquaTim, or a pentniliMinute. A Tim is a quadciaHour."

"A Clock is a pentquaTim, or an unquaHour, or a pentabiquaMinute. A Day is a biClock, an Hour is an unciaClock, and a Tim is a pentciaClock."

"A Block is a triquaTim, or an unciaHour, or a pentaMinute." I rather like this as a colloquialism. It conveys the sense of a "5-minute period" as a minimal "block of time" on the clock. And together with "Clock" it makes a nice frame around "Hour": "Two Clocks in a Day, twelve Hours in a Clock, twelve Blocks in an Hour."

"A Tock is a biquaTim, or a biciaHour, or a biuniSecond. A Tick is an unquaTim, or a triciaHour, or a bidituniSecond." I don't like these as much, because "tick" and "tock" don't really convey any sense of how long these periods are, at least to me. I don't imagine a clock ticking every two-and-one-twelfth seconds, and tocking every two-dozen-one seconds. I expect if a clock is going to tick, it would do so on its finest time resolution, which can quite reasonably be the Tim. (See my UncialClock.) That's why I've suggested some form of the word "Tick" as a colloquialism for Tim.
In which case:

"An Unctic (/'ʌŋk.tɪk/, rhymes with "hectic") is an unquaTim, or a bidituniSecond. A Bictic (/'bɪk.tɪk/, rhymes with "hectic", sort of rhymes with "minute") is a biquaTim, or a biciaHour, or a biuniSecond." Given that "bi" features so prominently in the definition of TGM's "quasi-minute" period, I figure the colloquialism for it should incorporate that.
We really do need a name for units between an hour and a minute long.  The dozenal system gives us convenient-sized units for such, including the ever-present five-minute period (a twelfth of an hour), and TGM is even based on one such (1 hour x 10-4, or 410), the Tim; all we need to do is fill in the names.
Pssst:
1 hour x 10-4 = 4Hr
410 = 31

;)
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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dgoodmaniii
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Oct 20 2011, 03:30 PM #23

Kodegadulo @ Oct 20 2011, 01:51 PM wrote: Pssst:
1 hour x 10-4 = 4Hr
410 = 31

;)
He got me! Yes, what Kode said. A Tim is a quadciaHour (4Hr). There should not be a zero in there.

So possible colloquialisms are a block for an unciaHour(1Hr)/triquaTim(3Tm), a bictic for a biciaHour(2Hr)/biquaTim(2Tm), and an unctic for an triciaHour(3Hr)/unquaTim(1Tm), and perhaps even "tick" for a Tim.

Similarly, people sometimes say "click" for "kilometer."

Also, you forgot a "c" in "unctic," didn't you?
All numbers in my posts are dozenal unless stated otherwise.
For ten, I use :A or X; for elv, I use :B or E. For the digital/fractional/radix point, I use the Humphrey point, ";".
TGM for the win!
Dozenal Adventures
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m1n1f1g
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Oct 20 2011, 09:28 PM #24

Presumably that's "unctic", not "untic"; and why /ŋ/ instead of /n/? Surely that would be "ungctic", which is not it.

Other than that, I've been wondering recently about the power prefixes used on your constructed numeral (IUPAC) prefixes. Would it be better to specify the magnitude of the most significant digit, rather than the least significant? I was thinking this because then firstly you know the magnitude without having to hear all of the digits and also rounding is a simple matter of taking off the digits. It would mean that the day is a quadbinaquaduaSecond, as opposed to ...triquaSecond. It's a bit like scientific notation, and would also bring nilqua into use if we went into fractionals. Basic digit lists (like on unbipentizium) could be kept, with power inferred.

It's okay if you don't agree - I'm not sure if I agree - but I wanted to put another idea forward.
A few little conventions:
- Dozenal integers suffixed with prime (′). This is the uncial point.
- Decimal integers suffixed with middle dot (·). This is the decimal point.

You may see me use * prefix for messages before 11Ɛ7-03-1X, and a whole range of similar radix points. I will often use X and Ɛ for :A and :B.

Sometimes, I will imply that an integer is in dozenal, so I won't add any marks to it. You should be able to tell that "10 = 22 * 3" is in dozenal.
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