Not going to great lengths for a measured question, as a rule

Dozenal computer tools
Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Jul 8 2018, 06:51 PM #49

@Dan,

You know, I may have read too much in what querty wrote, and overreacted rudely. For that, I do apologize.

That said, the word "cobber" was completely obscure to me. Never heard it before. For all I knew it could be a hellacious profanity. It certainly had the sound of one. So I'm sitting here thinking, yep, this guy was spoiling for a fight.

Now, it turns out it's an Australian equivalent of "buddy" or "pal", so relatively innocent, even if it can be used ironically ... but I had to look it up to find out. Am I the only one who needed to? I mean, we're all fairly cosmopolitan here, so we know that "mate" is what Australians would use for "buddy" (or conversely, that "buddy" is what Americans would use for "mate"). So why make a point of using "cobber",  an expression that parochial, when "mate" would have done?   So I still think he was spoiling for a fight. But even if he wasn't, rage-quitting the whole forum just because of me is kind of an insult to the whole forum.

Honestly, I do think we ought to have more (friendly) people from around the world on this forum, including (friendly) Australians. I do think newcomers should spend more time actually studying the ideas people have come up with here rather than the unfortunate interpersonal history.

Dan, I don't think you can characterize Shaun as having doxxed querty in any way. A vague indication of the country of origin of someone's IP is not the same as outing the IP itself. No one here is asking for, nor revealing, any specific personal info about him.

EDIT: Addendum:
danthemanxf wrote:in fact he [qwerty] kept civil even after being driven off.
Eh, I don't know as I would call his reaction necessarily "civil", but be that as it may.  It was never my intent to "drive him off".  I believe what I said to him was:
kodegadulo wrote:Coming to this forum implies that one is at least willing to consider doing things unconventionally.
That is not a demand that someone leave.  That is an invitation to stay, to consider that an interest in dozenal is already a radical act, and to question the conventional assumptions one may still be bringing along from the wider decimal world.  I may have been unnecessarily sarcastic in making that point, but it was his choice to go immediately to melodrama, and storm off in a huff. Doesn't that seem a tad precipitous?
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Jul 9 2018, 04:38 AM #50

(Let � be a placeholder for the brand of some metrology, but not specified. Pronounce it "foo" if you like.)

So there seems to be a consensus here that a beginner's introduction to a given metrology should focus on just presenting its "ordinate units" (as the authors of Do-Metric termed them), i.e., the base units of the metrology, and their dozenal powers, referenced only by means of "formal names" generated using power prefixes. "Auxiliary" or "intermediate" units, and colloquial names for both the "ordinate" and "intermediate" units, should be treated as advanced or even optional topics, deferred to a later time or even indefinitely.  Well, if that's the consensus, so be it.

However, let me posit this caveat:  We are considering building some kind of application for generating rulers for any metrology whatsoever, including as-yet-unknown metrologies yet to come out of the imaginations of kids.  I have been offering this community the notion of quantitels as a common resource: a set of generic names for base units of measurement derived from the names of the quantities they measure.  Anyone may use them for any metrology they please, with the proviso that when they do so, they should mark that usage with some sort of brand prefix or brand symbol, and not attempt to expropriate the unadorned quantitels as names for their own specific units.  I hold myself to that same ethic: I have not granted Primel the exclusive privilege of "owning" the unmarked form of quantitels, even though I might have.  Instead, I've defined unmarked quantitels as being abstractions for the idea of "base units".

This has some consequences, if one applies this scheme to many metrologies.  For one, it can get rather monotonous.  Every metrology � winds up with a length unit called "�lengthel".  That's a big savings of effort for the designer of a metrology, but I could see how a user could get lost in a huge sea of different "lengthels".  Unless you scrupulously pronounce the brand of the metrology every time, your audience can lose track of what unit you're actually talking about.  Furthermore, by its very genericity, a quantitel gives absolutely no cue or clue about what it means in terms of an actual size. Different metrologies can have "lengthels" of radically different sizes.  Conversely, several metrologies may wind up including the exact same sizes as units, but with very different "formal" names due to the radically different sizes of their respective lengthels.  

On the other hand, the whole point of a colloquial name is to try to evoke the size itself, by some visceral analogy rooted in common experience.  It deliberately does not spell out how that size relates to the size of the base unit.  Because of this, colloquial names can be thought of as just as generic and reusable across metrologies as quantitel names.  Except that a colloquial always means the same absolute size (or at the very least, something approximating that size), whereas a formal prefix+quantitel name always means the same relative size with respect to whatever the given metrology treats as its base unit.  So consider once again my stock metrologies and proposed colloquialisms (not to advocate for their endorsement, but merely to demonstrate the point). In fact, let me toss in a couple new metrologies, just for fun:

Purple indicates "ordinate" units.
Green indicates "auxiliary" or "intermediate" units.
Colloquial
Name
Primel
Formal Name
(⚀timel=hexcia·day)
Tertiel
Formal Name
(⚂timel=pentcia·day)
"Linish" (?) Metrology
Formal Name
(Ⓛtimel=hexcia·clock)
"Pendlebury-esque"
Formal Name
(⊖timel=pentcia·clock)
"Karlish" (?) Metrology
Formal Name
(Ⓚtimel=hexcia·phase)
Phasic
Formal Name
(⨁timel=pentcia·phase)
�ell 1 ⚀biqua·lengthel 1 ⚂lengthel 4 Ⓛbiqua·lengthel 4 ⊖lengthel 1.4z Ⓚtriqua·lengthel 1.4z ⨁unqua·lengthel
�yard 9 ⚀unqua·lengthel 9 ⚂uncia·lengthel 3 Ⓛbiqua·lengthel 3 ⊖lengthel 1 Ⓚtriqua·lengthel 1 ⨁unqua·lengthel
�foot 3 ⚀unqua·lengthel 3 ⚂uncia·lengthel 1 Ⓛbiqua·lengthel 1 ⊖lengthel 4 Ⓚbiqua·lengthel 4 ⨁lengthel
�hand 1 ⚀unqua·lengthel 1 ⚂uncia·lengthel 4 Ⓛunqua·lengthel 4 ⊖uncia·lengthel 1.4z Ⓚbiqua·lengthel 1.4z ⨁lengthel
�palm 9 ⚀lengthel 9 ⚂bicia·lengthel 3 Ⓛunqua·lengthel 3 ⊖uncia·lengthel 1 Ⓚbiqua·lengthel 1 ⨁lengthel
�thumb 3 ⚀lengthel 3 ⚂bicia·lengthel 1 Ⓛunqua·lengthel 1 ⊖uncia·lengthel 4  Ⓚunqua·lengthel 4  ⨁uncia·lengthel
�morsel 1 ⚀lengthel 1 ⚂bicia·lengthel 4 Ⓛlengthel 4 ⊖bicia·lengthel 1.4z  Ⓚunqua·lengthel 1.4z  ⨁uncia·lengthel
�quan (?) 9 ⚀uncia·lengthel 9 ⚂tricia·lengthel 3 Ⓛlengthel 3 ⊖bicia·lengthel 1 Ⓚunqua·lengthel 1 ⨁uncia·lengthel
�line 3 ⚀uncia·lengthel 3 ⚂tricia·lengthel 1 Ⓛlengthel 1 ⊖bicia·lengthel 4  Ⓚlengthel 4  ⨁bicia·lengthel
�granular 1 ⚀uncia·lengthel 1 ⚂tricia·lengthel 4 Ⓛuncia·lengthel 4 ⊖tricia·lengthel 1.4z  Ⓚlengthel 1.4z  ⨁bicia·lengthel
�karl (?) 9 ⚀bicia·lengthel 9 ⚂quadcia·lengthel 3 Ⓛuncia·lengthel 3 ⊖tricia·lengthel 1 Ⓚlengthel 1 ⨁bicia·lengthel
Note: For lack of anything better, I need to borrow these names from Do-metric:
  1. Let "�quan" be gravity-based approximation of Do-metric "ᗑquan" (quarter-inch)
  2. Let "�karl" be gravity-based approximation of Do-metric "ᗑkarl" (quarter-line)
Note: To be complete, one can replace the numeric mantissas above with multiplier prefixes:
  • 3 = trina·
  • 4 = quadra·
  • 9 = ennea·
  • 1.4z = unditquadra·
But some people might feel this would over-complicating the names.

So now we have three pairs of metrologies. In each pair, one metrology is based on the hexcia· of some period, the other on the pentcia· of the same period.  The latter winds up with a lengthel that is the biqua·lengthel of the former.  Even if you reject the idea of including all the green "auxiliary" units in their respective metrologies, you still have the possibility that the purple "ordinate" units may have different names across different metrologies, with no direct indication that they are in fact the same size, nor any a priori indication what that size actually is.  On the other hand, if we relate them to colloquial names, we get a sense of their size.

Comments?

P.S. I'm by no means saying all of these metrologies are equally practical or desirable, I'm just trying to demonstrate the possibilities. The "�karl" in particular seems dubiously small to use as a fundamental length unit for everyday purposes.
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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icarus
Dozens Demigod
icarus
Dozens Demigod
Joined: Apr 11 2006, 12:29 PM

Jul 9 2018, 02:11 PM #51

Kode,

Sorry, offline over Sunday. YES the ruler would be TO SCALE. The program can generate a PDF. I have also been trying to get down to setting up embedded CDFs and not sure why they are not working. If that is true, then one could visit a page and then generate their own ruler. Alternatively, it could produce a PDF to scale for any scheme, with any ticks, etc. that you desire, such that you might feature it as a download. Oschkar's ruler looks great. It could produce output similar to that. Just give me specs or we can do some form of design back and forth. I am heading into a deeper project cycle and won't have a lot of time in the next couple weeks; as we approach next Friday I will have very little time, but over the coming months this thing could be done. We might discuss it and nail it down in Atlanta.

Now, in making a to-scale ruler we must bear in mind the common A4 or 8½ × 11 printer page size available to most people online. A footlong ruler might not be printed to scale client side for reasons under their control. For this reason, we might consider furnishing an 8-inch ruler, or giving them a checkbox that says, "Yes, I know how to tape together two pages or I have a tabloid-size printer and know what I am doing. Make a footlong ruler". Any ruler we produce need not have USC inches or centimeters on them; they could put whatever system on them as they desire.

As regards doxxing, come on man. We just eliminated someone's auto-doxxing (though we can't be responsible for everything people post; we're not always on policing everyone's actions. After all, we have a life and though we might be pretty passionate, we are merely volunteers). Saying which continent from which someone appears to be posting is plainly not very effective "doxxing". After all, there are many cities on that continent, many country lanes, mountains, caves, alleys, coves, forests primeval, ruins, barrios, gated communities, estuaries, crevasses, chop shops, snowfields, chaparral, proving grounds, and taiga that must be searched north and south for this person. The Empire couldn't find the Bad Guy with daisycutter marines, a mean motive, and the world's sympathy; so how is N00b Haxx0r Keywarrior going to rent-a-car and find an outback post address given just the mention of APNIC? You could make an exciting documentary, though. Saving Cobber Querty. Surely we have analytics, and in those analytics we have ability to determine IP. I have analytics on the sites I manage. An IP address is pretty murky and indistinct. We're more interested in views, and in the case of trouble, trying to identify what to do to stem the trouble. For example, we've had young members who'd joined, and their schoolmates tracked them down to rib them (not sure if "bullying") so we had to determine location to temporarily keep folks from this member's location from joining for those few days. I personally don't regard the IPs unless there is suspicious activity on my web properties, and here I think I've never really looked at them. Reason is I got more to do day to day than piddle about some foreign IP address of someone who keyed in something I fumed at on Tuesday morning. If we want order here, then someone must attempt to keep it, using the tools at our disposal. I know the names of several members here from meeting them IRL and have been careful not to "out" their names, as it is their implied intent to remain "anonymous" via a username (which is their prerogative). But no one can guarantee an interested party can't do basic web research to identify said avatars merely by their virtual footprint. For Pete's sake we are talking about mathematics, number bases, and weights and measure here. I think the only topic less triggering might be methods of conducting an orchestra or techniques for ensuring water pressure in PVC pipes. The world is going nuts if they feel they must hunt down a keyboarder merely because they didn't like the configuration of ASCII characters they strung together on a recreational maths internet forum.

I would just like to presume that everyone here would have a jolly time chatting about maths and measure, etc., at a coffee shop, piazza, or pub. I think we'd all have a grand time and would find that an hour or a day wouldn't be enough. We'd resonate with one another about things that bemuse us, and no one else IRL really can understand. We could seamlessly talk about transdecimal digits, Pitman or Dwiggins, or chat about "The Opposed Principles" of Least-Change or Separate-Identity and completely get it; we could pour over the facets of TGM or Primel or USC, etc. and about the sundry flavors of digits in sundry bases. It would be fascinating not to have to roll out a huge eye-glazing explication about what we're so amped over; just say "lengthel" or "grafut" and the other person totally gets it. In one meeting, we could go straight to "deeper level" discussions that no one else on earth completely understands; like when Paul and Kode chatted with one another about keeping time; details, and ins and outs of systems. We have far more in common than not in common! So I beg thee to presume that the other Members here don't have evil motives or an animus against thine posts. I ask thee to try and understand the other Members are human beings with their shortcomings, and let them have their shortcomings, since there is no effective way to "change" that other person "for the better" (i.e., to "thine own way of being") over the internet. We are all friends, brothers and sisters, in numbers and measures.
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Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Jul 9 2018, 03:25 PM #52

icarus wrote:As regards doxxing, come on man.
Uh, I'm assuming you're directing that part of your post to dantheman rather than me. With regard to the supposed "doxxing" not being anything of the sort, and all the rest of your points, you and I are in violent agreement. 😉

Folks, how about we all agree on this: Less melodrama, more math.

And to that end, yeah, icarus, your plan for the ruler app sounds 😎 wicked cool (just to toss in a particularly parochial Masselchusetts idiom 😉). No rush, totally understand, I'm up to my eyeballs with work myself, and all that...
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Kodegadulo
Obsessive poster
Joined: Sep 10 2011, 11:27 PM

Jul 11 2018, 03:13 AM #53

 @Oschkar:

I really do like your rendering of a dozenal ruler. In a pinch, I think it may be a good ruler template for any dozenal metrology, as long as one can pick a reasonable "unit" for the scale, something between, let's say, a �quan and a �thumb or thereabouts.  All one need do is stretch or compress the horizontal length of your template, while preserving its vertical width, as well as the size of the numerals. The "unit" counted off by the numerals does not necessarily have to be the lengthel of the given metrology; it could be some dozenal power of it. (For instance, for Primel (as you already have it), it could be the ⚀lengthel = ⚀morsel; whereas for a "Pendlebury-esque" metrology, it could be the ⊖uncia·lengthel = ⊖thumb; whereas for a Tertiel-like metrology it could be the ⚂bicia·lengthel = ⚂morsel.

One thing that would be nice is if the uncia markings extended uniformly throughout the length of the ruler, not just the first dozen "units". It would also be nice if the template extended at least up to a gross "units"; or even better, if icarus' app could generate any arbitrary length, even up to several gross "units".  I'm thinking it would be great if it could support not just smallish notebook-sized rulers, but also longish yard-stick/meter-stick/ell-stick sized rulers, and even very long tape-measures.  In the latter cases, I'd think users would want to avail themselves of those fine uncia markings right at the end-point of the measurement, no matter where it occurs, without having to lift the stick or rewind the tape measure, just to bring those first dozen "units" to bear.

Showing a full gross "units", divided down to the uncias, i.e. a full galore of markings or three recursive powers, including special highlighting at the halves, thirds, quarters, sixths, eights, ninths, and dozenths of a gross, would be a great teaching aid. It can help beginners learn about uncial regulars and start getting an intuitive feel for the sizes of various "pergrossages".
As of 1202/03/01[z]=2018/03/01[d] I use:
ten,eleven = ↊↋, ᘔƐ, ӾƐ, XE or AB.
Base-neutral base annotations
Systematic Dozenal Nomenclature
Primel Metrology
Western encoding (not by choice)
Greasemonkey + Mathjax + PrimelDozenator
(Links to these and other useful topics are in my index post;
click on my user name and go to my "Website" link)
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Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Paul Rapoport
Dozens Disciple
Joined: Dec 26 2012, 01:59 AM

Jul 17 2018, 02:17 PM #54

Oschkar's ruler (edited version) is close to what I had imagined in part. Perhaps there's no need for other measures on the same ruler, especially if it's possible for people to order what they want. Or is a ready comparison to SI and/or USC useful, especially for educational purposes? There's still a possible side 2 to the ruler.

I like the division of the basic unit into 4 and into 6, also the length of 60. I don't know the value of the regular numbers 14 and 16 for the ruler. Seems an interesting idea; how would that be used? Should the thumb also be marked, e.g. by bold face 3, 6, 9? If people think that's an inch, they're in for a little surprise that gets bigger…does that matter?

Material: steel? plastic?

Although this has been an interesting exercise and discussion, does the ruler need a companion or two (e.g. a liquid volume measuring device) to be more useful?
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