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alpha_delta
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Joined: March 27th, 2017, 4:45 pm

November 9th, 2017, 12:33 pm #2611

alpha_delta wrote:Based on discussions, speculations and recent announcements, this would be the some of the specs for Sensors and processing systems for FAP (HHI-2600)


Combat System:
Hanwha FFX Combat Management System
Search Radar:
Hensoldt TRS-3D
Navigation Radar:
Kelvin Hughes SharpEye I band and E/F band
Fire Control Radar:
Selex NA-25X radar
Electro-Optical Tracking System:
Safran PASEO NS Multi-mission naval electro-optical fire control system
Sonar
Unknown
Electronic warfare and decoys:
Countermeasures
Terma C-Guard DL-6T
Armament
1 x Oto Melara 76mm Super Rapid Gun
1 x Aselsan SMASH 30mm RWS
Torpedoes:
2 x SEA triple torpedo launcher
updating...

Any idea what would be the hull mounted sonar in replace of the Thales Bluewatcher.

Regarding the main gun is the Oto Melara 76mm gun the assured gun for FAP?
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40niner_com
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Joined: August 7th, 2006, 12:19 am

November 9th, 2017, 12:58 pm #2612

^ since the Air Search Radar (ASR) is being highlighted above, we will review of the specs on the bid document for the 3D Radar :


Specs of the so-called alternative model, the TRS-3D/16 (which is similar to that installed on the early units of the Freedom Class LCS and had been designated as (AN/SPS-75)) :


The previously approved and certified choice of PN :


Take note on the requirement on the number of tracks.

-----
wrote:Regarding the main gun is the Oto Melara 76mm gun the assured gun for FAP?
Apparently, all other alternatives (including the Hanwha-built on the ROKN-PKGs) fall below the 120rpm requirement. Only the 76mm/62 Super Rapid / Rapido version so far fits the requirement.
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raider1011
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raider1011
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November 9th, 2017, 2:56 pm #2613

There's actually five in-service or proposed variants of the TRS-3D:

- TRS-3D/16, the original dating from the nineties.

- TRS-3D/16ES, from the early 2000s, adding Electronic Stabilization.

- TRS-3D Baseline D from 40_niner's pic, the latest distinguished by the addition of a solid-state transmitter that uses technology from the TRS-4D. Cuvillier Verlag (p. 13.)

- TRS-3D/32, a scaled-up version for the German navy from the late nineties, though still limited to 400 tracks. Bundeswehr (p. 6.)

- TRS-3D/24, proposed for the Royal Navy Type 23 radar upgrade in 2008. NATO





The contest apparently places TRS-3D/24 in the same class as the 750-track Smart-S Mk 2 and 900-track Artisan, the eventual winner.

Question being, is it still in Hensoldt's catalog? Or, at least, could the technology developed for TRS-3D/24 be inserted into the current, smaller version? -- Along the lines of an upgraded backend/signal processor as explained by r3mu511 here?

Otherwise, plain as day HHI would be violating procurement rules if it trots out a vanilla TRS-3D.
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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alpha_delta
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November 9th, 2017, 3:05 pm #2614

Apparently, there are only 3 types of Radar on the Hensoldt, and TRS-4D fits the required tracking capacity for FAP.

https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/radar/
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raider1011
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raider1011
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November 9th, 2017, 3:29 pm #2615

alpha_delta wrote:Apparently, there are only 3 types of Radar on the Hensoldt, and TRS-4D fits the required tracking capacity for FAP.

https://www.hensoldt.net/solutions/sea/radar/
Looking at range and track capacity TRS-4D is better than NS106, more so with the arguments (p. 2) for C-band (TRS-4D) over S-band (NS100) radars taken into consideration. Assuming it overcomes the concerns about integration with Naval Shield.

Hopefully HHI sees reason.

God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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40niner_com
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Joined: August 7th, 2006, 12:19 am

November 9th, 2017, 11:38 pm #2616

^ thanks @raider, for the additional information.

When I asked @Remus (privately a few months ago) on comparing the TRS(series) over the NS-100 this was his (usual) technical reply --
wrote:The trs radar I assume you mean the "-4D" and not "-3D", as the former is the aesa version, while the latter is solid-state but non-aesa...

Assuming HHI is offering the trs-4d (ie. the aesa model), then this is like the ns100 series in that it is also a dual-axis scanning active array...
  • it is however rated lower in range, 250 km vs. 280 km for the ns100...
  • has a minimum range of "< 100m" vs. 15m of the ns100 (lower minimum range is better)...
  • it is in a higher frequency, ie. C-band (vs. the ns100 in S-band) which would mean more succeptibility to weather attenuation and precipitaton echo clutter...
  • it's track performance accuracy is rated as around 10x less than that of a dedicated fcr (ns100 claims "monopulse like accuracy" but no figures given)...
  • it also can only attain it's full range performance at a 15 rpm scan rate (ie. 4 second update rate) and needs to give up full range to switch to a 30 rpm rate to get the 2 second update rate, in contrast to this the ns100 series operates in an interleaved mode where it can perform a 4-second update rate full range scan while it is rotating at 30 rpm to get it's 2-second update rate shorter range scan...
  • to it's advantage trs-4d does offer a sector scan mode (ie. staring mode) where it can cover a 100 degree sector with an update rate of "< 1 sec", by comparison the ns100 claims a "< 2 sec" update rate for priority targets at the 30 rpm scan rate...
(as an aside, if you actually mean HHI was offering the non-aesa trs-3d, then that is a very large step down from the ns100 series, as the -3D loses the dual-axis scanning ability unlike it's full aesa -4D sibling, has less range, less track capacity, less elevation angular coverage...

but I don't see how HHI can try to offer the -3D as it fails the bid spec reqts
As you had posted earlier -- if forex is the baseline cost-differential problem, then HHI can also request/argue for adjustment. Based on reports, HHI is indeed under heavy pressure from its stockholders and lenders to perform, especially in these sluggish global demand for shipping and offshore reinvestments.
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raider1011
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November 10th, 2017, 1:18 am #2617

^Thanks, 40_niner. There are actually three variants of NS100, depending on the number of transmitter modules: Doria

The number of transmitter modules in the radar antenna can be scaled to the customer's requirements. The NS100 has 10 modules, NS106 six modules and NS103 three modules. NS100 is aimed at frigates and corvettes, NS106 missile and other attack ships, and NS103 for smaller patrol and auxiliary vessels. Thales Nederland's opinion suggests that the antenna transmitter modules can be upgraded up to fifteen.

The ten-module variant is actually branded NS110. This is why the figures on some brochures differ from other published sources.
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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raider1011
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raider1011
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November 10th, 2017, 1:48 am #2618

Terma of Denmark at Defense and Security 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quDtm113cWE

Shephard
God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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abyss237
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abyss237
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November 10th, 2017, 3:16 am #2619

alpha_delta wrote:
alpha_delta wrote:Based on discussions, speculations and recent announcements, this would be the some of the specs for Sensors and processing systems for FAP (HHI-2600)


Combat System:
Hanwha FFX Combat Management System
Search Radar:
Hensoldt TRS-3D
Navigation Radar:
Kelvin Hughes SharpEye I band and E/F band
Fire Control Radar:
Selex NA-25X radar
Electro-Optical Tracking System:
Safran PASEO NS Multi-mission naval electro-optical fire control system
Sonar
Unknown
Electronic warfare and decoys:
Countermeasures
Terma C-Guard DL-6T
Armament
1 x Oto Melara 76mm Super Rapid Gun
1 x Aselsan SMASH 30mm RWS
Torpedoes:
2 x SEA triple torpedo launcher
updating...

Any idea what would be the hull mounted sonar in replace of the Thales Bluewatcher.

Regarding the main gun is the Oto Melara 76mm gun the assured gun for FAP?
IDK but I think it will come from Atlas or might be Korean
"If we desire the respect of other nations, we must show them that we are exerting all efforts to build a nation not only strong in arms but unconquerable in spirit. An indomitable will to fight & an unflinching resolution to defend at all costs "life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness" are the fundamental characteristics of any nation that deserves to survive"

-Brigadier General Vicente Lim
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raider1011
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raider1011
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November 10th, 2017, 8:44 am #2620

The sonar requirement if I remember correctly lists both medium- and low-frequency operation. Assuming medium-frequency in active mode (and low-frequency in passive or listening mode) is desired the hull-mounted sonar (HMS) alternatives to Thales include:

Atlas Elektronik - sonars in-service on Korean navy KDX destroyers
LIGNex1 - the sonar on the FFX-I and FFX-II frigates
Harris - US company very familiar to the AFP, but red tape might be an issue
L3 Ocean Systems - US company, see above
DSIT - Israeli newcomer to the sonar market that's already scored a couple of export wins and upgrade contracts for Israeli navy corvettes, interestingly some of their material is in Tagalog

BUT if the requirements call for both medium and low frequency operation in active mode there is only one such HMS fit for light frigate-sized warships:

Bharat Electronics Limited - Indian company, HUMSA-NG is the sonar for the Kamorta-class. A compact variant designated HMS-X2 has been exported, but this is likely to be medium-frequency only.

BUT the problem is -- except maybe for the Indian and Israeli offers -- all of the above sonars appear more capable, complex, and thus likely more expensive than Thales Bluewatcher. Ignoring requirements then the only alternative -- from being cheap -- is a high-frequency HMS like this one: Kongsberg



EDIT: Nautel C-Tech of Canada pitches its HMS as "medium-frequency" although it operates in the same higher-frequency range as the Kongsberg sonar. Exported to an Asian navy. To give an idea of the cost for this class of "lite" sonars an older contract for the same product (Marport C-Tech was the former name of the company before its acquisition by Nautel):
wrote:July 22, 2009

Local company Marport C-Tech has secured a $2.7-million contract to supply its sonar system technology to a national naval force. ...

Leyte couldn't divulge the country for confidentiality reasons, however she said the contract involves a class of four vessels in a naval force. The company is also looking to bid on three other classes of vessels, and that work could carry a combined price tag of $10 million, Leyte added. ...

The technology itself - formally known as the CTS-24 Hull Mounted Sonar system - is something the Cornwall company has specialized in for quite some time.

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God grant me the courage not to give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless.

|| Chester W. Nimitz

Loyalty to the Nation ALL the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it.

|| Mark Twain
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